Level Up (A5E) Monk Buff Suggestion

[tetrasodium]

Good points. Admittedly I didn't run the math, but I just wish the Monk wasn't so inherently MAD and could have a little leeway in terms of ability scores to make different flavours of Monk easier to build.

I think that is a throwback to each edition constantly trying to emulate historical oddities from early editions where it was a hybrid of fighter & thief tables that occasionally picked up messy bits that then became central to it by pure chance & how the next edition worked. This video goes into the history of monk through editions.

In every version so far monk has been an awful mess that might progress to kind broken & disruptive when it suddenly starts stomping on people's niches after many levels of gm's making one off exceptions for poor bob the monk stuck playing bruce lee. Others have suggested splitting it into two forks but I suggest going one step further & jettisoning the baggage in favor of something that fits from the ground up using inspiration from modern sources like anime. Ignoring the overpowered main character syndrome almost always present in anime here are very few characters that look much like d&d's monk but plenty for the other classes look similar... with the exception of lee from naruto who is described as such "During his time in the Academy, Lee proved to have no talent for ninjutsu and genjutsu(the stuff literally everyone else did). When he was mocked by his peers because of this, Lee persevered, focusing on taijutsu. After he succeeded in graduating he was added to Team Guy along with Neji Hyūga and Tenten. During the team's first meeting, Lee vowed to become a powerful ninja without using ninjutsu or genjutsu. Neji laughed at him, but their sensei, Might Guy, took a special interest in Lee. He encouraged Lee to keep at it and, in time, began teaching him powerful forms of taijutsu".
nearly every time he was on screen through the series it was a disruption & so much of the monk's "just like everyone else but better because it's skill not magic or wood & metal" is not much better in most campaigns. Examples of fictional eastern equivalents to European fictional heroes like merlin robinhood & so on are so much more available these days with the state of internet streaming moving so much of it from torrented fansubs & hard to get expensive vhs/dvd sets to being available on mainstream media consumption for many including some broadcast/cabletv airings. How about monk fit the system where basically every setting has extensive & well known magic use in place instead of trying to replicate the fact that david carradine played a stranger in a strange but totally mundane land in the early 70s on kung fu?

 

[DND_Reborn]

FWIW other mods to monk at our table:

Martial Arts damage is one die better. 1d4 at low level is pitiful!
Part of Unarmored Movement: you can spend your reaction to instantly stand after having the prone condition. No movement cost.
Any weapon you are proficient in is a "monk weapon" (helpful for MC fighter types and pole-arms, etc.).

One idea I've been toying with but really pushes the OP level is Flurry of Blows grants a number of unarmed attacks equal to your proficiency bonus. I know, YIKES!, right? Makes for some really awesome flurries at tiers 3 and 4 LOL!

 

[tetrasodium]

Sure, I could definitely get behind that idea.

Sort of like spending ki to enter into a "mode": fight, flight, or defense. Once you enter the mode (i.e. Flurry, Step of the Wind, or Patent Defense) you can spend your bonus action to benefit from that mode each round until you change modes (by spending another ki point) or finish a rest or something?

That's almost like... casting a spell with a duration using a spell slot until you cast some other spell.

 

[Phoebasss]

Others have suggested splitting it into two forks but I suggest going one step further & jettisoning the baggage in favor of something that fits from the ground up using inspiration from modern sources like anime.

You spend pretty much all of this post in examples so I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean here. Is the suggestion that we get rid of monk? Make it into a magic class? I'm just not sure what you're actually suggesting.

 

[Undrave]

Sure, I could definitely get behind that idea.

Sort of like spending ki to enter into a "mode": fight, flight, or defense. Once you enter the mode (i.e. Flurry, Step of the Wind, or Patent Defense) you can spend your bonus action to benefit from that mode each round until you change modes (by spending another ki point) or finish a rest or something?

That's almost like... casting a spell with a duration using a spell slot until you cast some other spell.

Pretty much, but with a touch of Rage where it ends if you don't do the associated action. Like, if you don't flurry every turn your Flurry Mode ends. Subclasses could add more Modes to choose from.

 

[Maxperson]

I'd love to see Monks get a martial arts movie style flying kick. You know, the jump into the air and go 30 feet and then kick someone hard, then land.

 

[tetrasodium]

Pretty much, but with a touch of Rage where it ends if you don't do the associated action. Like, if you don't flurry every turn your Flurry Mode ends. Subclasses could add more Modes to choose from.

That would be a whole lot better if it cut down on the zany "nobody has any freaking clue what a monk's party role is & it's probably not going to be able to coordinate too well" grab bag randomness from turn to turn. too much of the class's design space is trying to fill the fact that it was originally bad at straddling the fighter & monk tables when those were a thing & got a bunch of random abilities when those classes developed into something of their own beyond those tables. A lot of those things didn't always work well(or really at all) in their day & are just kind of an odd collection.

You spend pretty much all of this post in examples so I'm having trouble figuring out what you mean here. Is the suggestion that we get rid of monk? Make it into a magic class? I'm just not sure what you're actually suggesting.

I thinka certain level of familiarity with the things I raised is important. In your case it would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference as spock once said as giving you the benefit of the doubt it sounds like you lack experience with watching any of the anime/wuxia sources myself & others have raised since the examples weren't exactly obscure and I linked to details you could easily have followed for some of them. There was a few editions where monks were a "divine" class alongside cleric paladin & ranger(all three are spellcasters for a few editions now). There was even one where there were a couple (bad) versions of it that were literally a cleric subclass. There are already monk-like spells such as investiture of wind, magic stone, featherfall & other slow fall-esque spells, mage armor/shield & other +ac but not from armor spells, absorb elements & other no I take half spells, gust/windwall & other arrow blocking spells &, plus so many others.

Whatever they do about "an eastern stereotype based class not particularly represented in a positive manner in modern entertainment" it should absolutely draw on modern entertainment & the pop culture associated with it rather than a tv show from five decades ago. Because modern entertainment uses a lot of magic like effects in conjunction with martial arts based fighting it's a good idea to make it a hybrid gish with thematic spells rather than continuing the trend throughout versions of a giant grab bag of one off messy features. Paladin doesn't have a smite pool & several different smite skills, they have one smite & a bunch of smite spells that use spellslots allowing a straight paladin that leans towards a martial cleric as well as more casterific variants like the scorcadin, scorlock, & scorlockadin.

 

[clsawyer0328]

FWIW, here’s the changes I’ve made to the Base Monk at my table.

d10 Hit Die and 1d10 (or 6) Hit Points per Level
Strength and Wisdom Saves (I assume Strength Monks as the default, although I would still allow Dexterity Monks)
Martial Arts die starts at a d6
Ki points equal to Wisdom Modifier + half Monk Level
Stunning Strike costs 2 Ki Points
Deflect Missiles is Martial Arts Die + Strength or Dexterity Modifier + Monk Level
Flurry of Blows gives 3 Attacks with a Bonus Action starting at 11th Level
Tongue of the Sun and Moon removed; Replaced with Blindsense
Diamond Soul adds half Proficiency Bonus to Saving Throws you’re not Proficient In
Perfect Self is completely changed. “You have purged incompetence from your techniques. Once per turn, if you roll lower than 10, you can treat the attack roll as a 10.”

 

[clsawyer0328]

I also think the Four Elements Monk needs a complete Rework. I could see making it into a third-caster like an Eldritch Knight, but maybe basing it off of the Sorcerer list instead and using Ki to cast spells.

The other option that my table prefers is a Stance based system. Each Element has a Stance: Air is focused on nimble movement and avoiding strikes, Earth is focused on being tougher, Fire is focused on damage, and Water is... countering I guess? Each one allows them to change their damage type if they prefer to, and has a Cantrip (Control Flames, Gust, Mold Earth, Shape Water). At each Subclass Level, they learn a new Stance and each Stance improves at Level 11.

 

[Phoebasss]

I thinka certain level of familiarity with the things I raised is important in your case it would be impossible to discuss the subject without a common frame of reference as spock once said as giving you the benefit of the doubt it sounds like you lack experience with watching any of the anime/wuxia sources myself & others have raised since the examples weren't exactly obscure and I linked to details you could easily have followed for some of them. There was a few editions where monks were a "divine" class alongside cleric paladin & ranger(all three are spellcasters for a few editions now). There was even one where there were a couple (bad) versions of it that were literally a cleric subclass. There are already monk-like spells such as investiture of wind, magic stone, featherfall & other slow fall-esque spells, mage armor/shield & other +ac but not from armor spells, absorb elements & other no I take half spells, gust/windwall & other arrow blocking spells &, plus so many others.

Whatever they do about "an eastern stereotype based class not particularly represented in a positive manner in modern entertainment" it should absolutely draw on modern entertainment & the pop culture associated with it rather than a tv show from five decades ago. Because modern entertainment uses a lot of magic like effects in conjunction with martial arts based fighting it's a good idea to make it a hybrid gish with thematic spells rather than continuing the trend throughout versions of a giant grab bag of one off messy features. Paladin doesn't have a smite pool & several different smite skills, they have one smite & a bunch of smite spells that use spellslots allowing a straight paladin that leans towards a martial cleric as well as more casterific variants like the scorcadin, scorlock, & scorlockadin.

I started talking about monks with this thread, excuse me for not reading replies from another thread I suppose. This follow-up post is at least more clear than the previous one, so thanks for that. And I do watch anime, fwiw. Just not naruto specifically.

So the idea then is a dex/wis half-caster so that it more clearly fits into 5e's class dynamics? And to dump the old Jackie Chan or Bruce Lee flavor in exchange something more akin to a Naruto style basically-magic power system? Sure, that seems neat. I'm not sure its exactly a monk, but maybe that's for the best given how much of a mess monk is.