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[Vyvyan Basterd]

Versatility vs. Power has never been that great of a dichotomy for balance.

If you choose a power from a class that synergizes with your chosen class, then it is well worth the cost of a single feat in 4E. Feats in 4E aren't worth as much as they were in 3E*. My contention is that the versatility has some ingrown power to it, so overall you aren't shorting your character in its power level (and even if you are losing power it is at most depriving yourself of 3 feats which doesn't put your character too far behind the power curve to the point of making a weak character). Obviously the majority disagree with me. My own players disagree with me. When I test my theory as a player I'll either prove them right or wrong. Maybe when that happens I'll start a thread here detailing my experiences with multiclassing.

*One example springs to mind. Not necessarily meant to prove that V=P, just a 3E to 4E example. In 3E you could do a whirlwind attak through feat choice. In 4E a non-fighter can gain the same option by MC into Fighter and chosing one of the Fighter "close burst 1" powers. Many people considered the cost of WA to be too high back then, but thought it a cool concept for their PC and still took it. MC now offers some of those same options, sometimes at a lower cost.

 

[Felon]

I wonder if it might be possible to create a set of abilities/bonus that would work as a bonus for anyone who picks up paragon multi-classing.

It seems to me that just as we have paragon paths races in PHB2--which are indifferent to the character's base class--we could likewise have them for paragon multiclassed characters. Why shouldn't a multiclassed paragon character get some neat benefit for spending an action point?

The cost of the feat gives your character versatility.

OK, I multiclassed my warlock with wizard. It's the only remotely good multiclassing option available because my best stat is Con and my second-best is Int. How has my world opened up? What wizard at-will is worth having as an encounter (bearing in mind the attack and damage roll is effectively -2 relative to my warlock powers)? What wizard encounter, utility, or daily is worth both a feat and a warlock power of the corresponding type?

Classes get versatility from multiclassing by virtue of their base class being needlessly hemmed in to begin with. The barbarian multiclasses as ranger just to have an attack he can use with his throwing axe. The monk multiclasses as rogue just to have some use for his shurikens. That's two feats gone, and the "feats aren't all that good anyway" argument is swiftly going the way of the flumph as more books come out. I know human warlock is all feated out, and seriously wants his mutliclass feats back.

You ought to get some benefit in addition to swapping out a power. The notion of providing to additional powerful feats that have multiclassing as a prerequisite has me intrigued.

 

[Plane Sailing]

OK, I multiclassed my warlock with wizard. It's the only remotely good multiclassing option available because my best stat is Con and my second-best is Int. How has my world opened up? What wizard at-will is worth having as an encounter (bearing in mind the attack and damage roll is effectively -2 relative to my warlock powers)? What wizard encounter, utility, or daily is worth both a feat and a warlock power of the corresponding type?

I'm not sure whether this is a rhetorical question or not, but I'll offer one answer

The infernal warlock in my campaign multiclassed as a wizard in order to get scorching burst as an encounter power, because if he manages to curse a bunch of mooks, it is great having an extra area attack spell to zap them with.

Wouldn't necessarily work for everyone, but works for him.

Often multiclassing isn't worth extra power-swap feats though. My 7th level wizard is multiclassed as a cleric purely because "Divine Oracle" would be an ideal class for the direction I want to take him in. Every time I look at the cleric vs wizard utility or encounter powers I find myself saying "nah, the wizard ones are better at this level"

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

OK, I multiclassed my warlock with wizard. It's the only remotely good multiclassing option available because my best stat is Con and my second-best is Int. How has my world opened up? What wizard at-will is worth having as an encounter (bearing in mind the attack and damage roll is effectively -2 relative to my warlock powers)? What wizard encounter, utility, or daily is worth both a feat and a warlock power of the corresponding type?

It depends alot on how you've built your character and what you want to do with him. I don't even necessarily agree that wizard is your only remotely good multiclassing option. Looking at stats isn't the end-all be-all of the MC choice. How the powers you choose through multiclassing interact with the abilities you have is more important to me. The question is too open-ended for me to answer. You might as well ask me for retirement planning advice. Without knowing your details and retirement goals any advice I gave would be just as general as what I have been saying about MC on this thread.

Classes get versatility from multiclassing by virtue of their base class being needlessly hemmed in to begin with. The barbarian multiclasses as ranger just to have an attack he can use with his throwing axe. The monk multiclasses as rogue just to have some use for his shurikens. That's two feats gone, and the "feats aren't all that good anyway" argument is swiftly going the way of the flumph as more books come out. I know human warlock is all feated out, and seriously wants his mutliclass feats back.

Your "needlessly hemmed in" is "properly focused" in some peoples' eyes. Probably even the designers. The barbarian doesn't need an attack power for his throwing axe, nor does the monk need one for his shuriken. Those are options that the average barbarian or monk will use only when then can't get face-to-face with their enemy and a basic ranged attack usually suffices. If you want the option to attack at range more often then I see that as exactly what the multiclass feats are meant for.

You ought to get some benefit in addition to swapping out a power. The notion of providing to additional powerful feats that have multiclassing as a prerequisite has me intrigued.

Most feats are passive. Multiclass feats are of the few that give you an active ability. The benefit you receive is access to an ability you would otherwise not have. Adding anything more would make the MC more powerful than other feats.

A couple examples of synergy:

Rogues benefit from having Combat Advantage over their enemies. Ranged rogues have to go through some work to gain CA regularly. Not many rogue powers attach conditions to an enemy that would grant him CA. Multiclass into a class that does have such powers to gain powers that daze, stun, etc his opponents to synergize with his sneak attack.

Warlocks can only curse the closest enemy. They are also squishy and usually want to avoid combat. Blitzing the enemy spellcaster could be dangerous for them. Multiclassing into powers that help them get closer to a protected enemy and back out again could help a warlock that wants to be able to hit the back line enemies and still benefit from his curse damage.

Or you may just want to multiclass becasue you have a cool concept and aren't worried about the power curve. It's much more difficult to make a character that falls to far below the power curve. You have to intentionally try to make your PC suck (like taking powers that key off an ability score of 8). The power disparity between the master min-maxxer and the casual players in my home group is barely noticable in 4E (the difference in 3E became untenable for me as DM in comparison).

 

[jasin]

Or you may just want to multiclass becasue you have a cool concept and aren't worried about the power curve. It's much more difficult to make a character that falls to far below the power curve. You have to intentionally try to make your PC suck (like taking powers that key off an ability score of 8). The power disparity between the master min-maxxer and the casual players in my home group is barely noticable in 4E (the difference in 3E became untenable for me as DM in comparison).

The only explanation I have for this that the minmaxing skill between the master minmaxer and the casual players is minuscule.

We've been playing 1st-8th, and the difference between the master minmaxer (playing a dwarf battle rager fighter) and the casual butt-kicker (playing a dark pact warlock) is larger than anything I've seen in 3E ever since I've had a late-3.0 dwarf melee cleric in the same party with a Con 8 fighter/cleric/paladin with +1 LA.

I'd expect 4E multiclassing is a particularly vicious trap. Suppose you have an 18 in your primary stat and 14 in your secondary. 14 isn't great, but it's not terrible, right? They did say that the math was done so that you'd need about a 16 in your primary stat, so you can afford a -1 for your multiclass powers, which aren't your focus, right?

Which puts you at -2 to attack compared to your primary class' powers, while WotC is publishing feats to bring up most people (y'know, those with 18s) up to speed since their attack values are too low. You spent a feat to swap a power which might be useful for one which will hit some... 1/3 of the time? God forbid you took an implement power if you're normally using weapons, such as a paladin trying to get some area effects from multiclassing into cleric (in which case you're also missing out on the trained skill).

To me this seems much like the multiclassed cleric/paladin from 3E: if you don't know exactly what you're doing, one of the more sensible-sounding multiclasses might end up about equal to shooting yourself in the foot.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

The only explanation I have for this that the minmaxing skill between the master minmaxer and the casual players is minuscule.

No, it's not. Viable challenges in 3E became nigh-impossible. What would challenge the min-maxxer would auto-kill the casuals and what would challenge the casuals was a cake-walk at best for the min-maxxer and at worst made the casuals irrelevant as the min-maxxer overshadowed them.

We've been playing 1st-8th, and the difference between the master minmaxer (playing a dwarf battle rager fighter) and the casual butt-kicker (playing a dark pact warlock) is larger than anything I've seen in 3E ever since I've had a late-3.0 dwarf melee cleric in the same party with a Con 8 fighter/cleric/paladin with +1 LA.

Dwarf battle rager is mighty powerful, but it doesn't take a min-maxxer to make one. A casual player can fall right into the same power without trying very hard. We've played 1st-11th so far and while the DBR (played by our "second-best" min-maxxer) is hard to take down without artillery foes, the feylock (played by our most casual player) has never been over-challenged nor made irrelevant by the DBR or the main min-maxxer's ranger.

I'd expect 4E multiclassing is a particularly vicious trap. Suppose you have an 18 in your primary stat and 14 in your secondary. 14 isn't great, but it's not terrible, right? They did say that the math was done so that you'd need about a 16 in your primary stat, so you can afford a -1 for your multiclass powers, which aren't your focus, right?

Which puts you at -2 to attack compared to your primary class' powers, while WotC is publishing feats to bring up most people (y'know, those with 18s) up to speed since their attack values are too low. You spent a feat to swap a power which might be useful for one which will hit some... 1/3 of the time? God forbid you took an implement power if you're normally using weapons, such as a paladin trying to get some area effects from multiclassing into cleric (in which case you're also missing out on the trained skill).

You can choose powers that don't rely on you hitting. Some powers have Effects that occur whether you hit or miss. Utilities don't attack anything. If you do multiclass for attack powers you can do so into a class that uses the same stat to attack as your own. A Monk multiclassing into Rogue for ranged attacks will use Dex for either power.

To me this seems much like the multiclassed cleric/paladin from 3E: if you don't know exactly what you're doing, one of the more sensible-sounding multiclasses might end up about equal to shooting yourself in the foot.

I agree that you have to know what you're doing. But I don't think that a player who spends all four feats to MC AND uses Paragon multiclassing in any semi-thoughtful way is going to be anywhere nearly as hosed as a 3E Paladin 10/Cleric 10.

 

[Plane Sailing]

This comes back to the problem that felon mentions for his warlock. Infernal or con based warlocks; unlike fighters, clerics, paladins, warlords, rangers (who can pretty easily choose multiclassing powers which will work effectively off their key ability)

 

[Pseudopsyche]

If you choose a power from a class that synergizes with your chosen class, then it is well worth the cost of a single feat in 4E. Feats in 4E aren't worth as much as they were in 3E*. My contention is that the versatility has some ingrown power to it, so overall you aren't shorting your character in its power level (and even if you are losing power it is at most depriving yourself of 3 feats which doesn't put your character too far behind the power curve to the point of making a weak character). Obviously the majority disagree with me. My own players disagree with me. When I test my theory as a player I'll either prove them right or wrong. Maybe when that happens I'll start a thread here detailing my experiences with multiclassing.

I would certainly agree that versatility has the potential to be powerful. However, I also suspect that versatility also gives you many sub-optimal choices. I strongly suspect WotC was very conservative with multiclassing, since it's a very broad rule that allows the combination of powers from two arbitrary classes, and it must be balanced against all the class powers that WotC ever releases. It looks to me like they chose to allow a few good multiclassing options and many more mediocre ones, instead of allowing many decent options and a few broken ones. Admittedly, I haven't spent a heck of a lot of time experimenting with concrete multiclass builds.

 

[Jack99]

It seems to me that just as we have paragon paths races in PHB2--which are indifferent to the character's base class--we could likewise have them for paragon multiclassed characters. Why shouldn't a multiclassed paragon character get some neat benefit for spending an action point?

That's probably the best way to model it.

 

[Vyvyan Basterd]

This comes back to the problem that felon mentions for his warlock. Infernal or con based warlocks; unlike fighters, clerics, paladins, warlords, rangers (who can pretty easily choose multiclassing powers which will work effectively off their key ability)

Just using the keywords "Effect" and "Constitution" in the Compendium and doing a quick search of heroic tier powers I find the following powers that key well off of Constitution and may be a better choice than equivalent powers the warlock can choose without multiclassing depending on what you want your warlock to do:

Barkskin - Druid Utility 2
Boundless Endurance - Fighter Utility 2
Unstoppable - Fighter Utility 2
Shroud of Awe - Invoker Utility 2
Fear No Elements - Swordmage Utility 2
Triumphant Vigor - Warden Utility 2
Phantom Structure - Artificer Utility 6
Laugh it Off - Barbarian Utility 6
Indomitable Shift - Barbarian Utility 6
Ode to Sacrifice - Bard Utility 6
Song of Conquest - Bard Utility 6
Unbreakable - Fighter Utility 6
Daring Shot - Fighter Utility 6
Unicorn's Touch - Swordmage Utility 6
Variable Defense - Swordmage Utility 6
Runic Resistance - Artificer Attack 7
Flamewall Strike - Swordmage Attack 7
Form of the Stone Sentinel - Warden Attack 9
Wellspring of Renewal - Barbarian Utility 10
Warding Vines - Warden Utility 10
Earthstride - Warden Utility 10