Monk Revisions

[Sunfist]

In the last campaign that I played in that was regular style d20 (and not some other world) the monk in our party was by far the most powerful character. The other fighters that we had were: a Paladin (me), a ranger, and a druid. Now, I didn't expect the druid to be that great at fighting, but I figured that my Paladin and my friends ranger would at least hold their own. That wasn't the case. The monk outshined us all the time.

However......there is VERY strong evidence to suggest that our DM had a major crush on the girl who was playing the monk. I was always suspicious of certain things going on around the table. For example, in one combat, the first fighter that came up against me attacked my Masterwork Bastard Sword and shattered it in two with his first attack.

Sunfist

 

[Pielorinho]

That would be the case (at least with protection from law). The caster would still have to bypass the monk's SR but at that level it would be pretty easy.

Nope -- that only works on summoned outsiders. The clause from protection from evil that applies:

Third, the spell prevents bodily contact by summoned or conjured creatures. This causes the natural weapon attacks of such creatures to fail and the creatures to recoil if such attacks require touching the warded creature. Good elementals and outsiders are immune to this effect. The protection against contact by summoned or conjured creatures ends if the warded creature makes an attack against or tries to force the barrier against the blocked creature. Spell resistance can allow a creature to overcome this protection and touch the warded creature.

Monks, though outsiders, are neither summoned nor conjured, and so PfE (or PfL) doesn't apply.

We have a monk/rogue in our current campaign, and although he's our main frontline fighter, that's only because the other PCs are a rog/sorcerer and a druid. However, we buff the monk constantly: every day, he gets a greater magic fang, a mage armor, a cat's grace, and a barkskin, and so his AC is in the low 30's usually. His ability to do a stunning blow and then sneak-attack with all remaining attacks is quite useful.

I think he has fun playing the character, but he's by no means overpowering -- and if he didn't have all kinds of buffs from the other party members, he'd be underwhelming.

Daniel

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

Ridley's Cohort: What is this "long period of uselessness?" The fact that Monks do less total damage on average per enemy on a round per round basis is one thing, but I just don't understand "useless." Someone already said that Monks are great at bringing back everyone else's corpse when the fight's over... Maybe it's just playing style, but "can't die" wins out over "more damage" in my mind every time.

The long period of uselessness covers approximately levels of 1-6. During that time period I would prefer a Warrior classed PC as an adventuring companion over a Monk classed PC. That is what I call "useless".

I would rather have someone with staying power (AC) and a flexible selection of weapons (martial weapons proficiency) than someone who can run away once I drop unconscious. Goody for you. Your character lives.

That is no benefit to me, and I don't see why I should put up with your monk sucking up an undeserved share of my hard earned xp and gp (except for metagame reasons).

The name of the game is teamwork. To contribute to the party a PC in a melee combat role needs to be able to either do a lot of damage or hold their ground. Low level monks can do neither. In fact, many rogues do both jobs better, and we don't usually think of the rogue as a grunt class -- for good reason.

(Don't bother mentioning scouting, other character classes do that just as well as a monk at low levels.)

[edited for clarity]

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The long period of uselessness covers approximately levels of 1-6. During that time period I would prefer a Warrior classed PC as an adventuring companion over a Monk classed PC. That is what I call "useless".

I would rather have someone with staying power (AC) and a flexible selection of weapons (martial weapons proficiency) than someone who can run away once I drop unconscious. Goody for you. Your character lives.

That is no benefit to me, and I don't see why I should put up with your monk sucking up an undeserved share of my hard earned xp and gp (except for metagame reasons).

The name of the game is teamwork. To contribute to the party a PC in a melee combat role needs to be able to either do a lot of damage or hold their ground. Low level monks can do neither. In fact, many rogues do both jobs better, and we don't usually think of the rogue as a grunt class -- for good reason.

(Don't bother mentioning scouting, other character classes do that just as well as a monk at low levels.)

[edited for clarity]

i'm going to slightly disagree on two points.

1 at really low elvels 1-3ish everyone even the fighter sucks at damage dealing the monk doesn't look that bad in comparison IMO.

2. I'd say the standardly built monk sucks at daamge dealing. I've seen way to many monk characters with a 10 str complaning about not kicking butt in a fight.

On the other hand the 1/2 orc monk in my current campaign(28 point buy stats not progrssively more expensive) started the game with these stats 20 str, 12 dex, 10 con, 10 int, 16 wis, 6 chr. (a bit more min/max than his usual but 1st tiem I've seen a 1/2 orc so I don't really care) Now with a +5 to hit and damage he's was at 1st level doing the same damage as the fighter, though the fighter is a much harder target with the sword and shield style. As we progressed the monk fell a bit behind withut magical damage bonuses but he saved his money and now has a +2 magic fist action going. The fighter is going with a +3 long sword, and +2 mighty bow so he's slightly more vesatile and damaging in attacks and they speant about the same on attack items. (10th level y the way) The monk now has a 24 str so with the +7 to hit just form str he hits faily often and for decent damage. Not as good as the fighter, but the skills, special abilties etc make up for it some what.

The fighter is still a much harder target in physical combat, though so the monk doesn't seem that uber durable to me, except vs spells.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

Nope -- that only works on summoned outsiders. The clause from protection from evil that applies:



Monks, though outsiders, are neither summoned nor conjured, and so PfE (or PfL) doesn't apply.

I would think the description of the Perfect Self ability supercedes that, since it specificially states that Protection from Law will repel the monk in question. It is definitely open to interpretation and is one of those vague statements that should be rewritten in the 3.5 release.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

As we progressed the monk fell a bit behind withut magical damage bonuses but he saved his money and now has a +2 magic fist action going.

I really hope to see a balanced magic-fang-style item in the revised PHB and SRD.

 

[Pielorinho]

I would think the description of the Perfect Self ability supercedes that, since it specificially states that Protection from Law will repel the monk in question. It is definitely open to interpretation and is one of those vague statements that should be rewritten in the 3.5 release.

That text is not in the SRD; given that this drastically changes the power level of the Protection from Alignment spells, I'll assume that it's mistaken. Otherwise, you could go to Hell under the auspices of Protection from Evil and not have to worry about being touched by the demons there; that's a wee bit powerful for a first-level spell.

Daniel

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Demons don't have to touch you to hurt you. They have spell-like abilities, and many carry weapons.

 

[Pielorinho]

Demons don't have to touch you to hurt you. They have spell-like abilities, and many carry weapons.

True for some evil outsiders, but not for all.

Daniel

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

It nerfs the bebilith. I'm happy