Monk Revisions

[Shard O'Glase]

I really hope to see a balanced magic-fang-style item in the revised PHB and SRD.

I don't think this one is that bad. Maybe we've been playing it wrong but I think it's +2 to hit and daamge for all unarmed attacks. For us that includes grappling, the flurry of blows etc. So it seems to take into account the monk is like a double weapon, and has alternate attack forms. I'd of placed it at bonus squaredx4000 and not x6000, but I don't think it is terrible.

 

[Baron Von StarBlade]

That text is not in the SRD; given that this drastically changes the power level of the Protection from Alignment spells, I'll assume that it's mistaken. Otherwise, you could go to Hell under the auspices of Protection from Evil and not have to worry about being touched by the demons there; that's a wee bit powerful for a first-level spell.

I don't see how that is the case. The text I am referring to is in the Perfect Self description not any of the protection from x spells. Therefore it would only hold true for creatures with the Perfect Self special ability.

 

[Lord Zardoz]

Attacking at Right Angles...

When it comes to direct 'force vs force' melee combat, the Monk just does not do too well. Against Monsters (Dire Animals, Trolls and the like), classed warrior types, and any other melee focused creature, the Monk will not cut it without a great deal of help. Here are some reasons for it.

1) Crappy AC - Without a great deal of AC buffing, he is a pin cushion.

2) Low BaB - He will miss against High AC, and will fail opposed attack rolls against Fighter Bab progression.

3) Unimpressive Damage - Unarmed attacks dont really get much in the way of a + to hit without a Magic Fang. As a result, you can only count on Str bonus.

I have read the term "Monk Lottery", which sounds apt. You miss often, and when you hit, the difference between rolling low and rolling high is great. After a point, Fighters, Rangers, Barbarians and Paladins have more + to damage then what they can score from their dice.

The flip side though, is that a Monk can do quite well when attacking and defending at a "Right Angle" to the situation at hand.

1) Stunning Fist: Opponent is easier to hit with successive attacks and loses his action.

2) Improved Trip: When it works, the Monk gets a +4 to hit, a free attack at the Bab that pulled off the trip, and the opponent generally cannot full attack since getting to your feet is a move equivalent action.

3) Very Mobile: A Monk can almost always get away from or get in close to enemies that are a threat to it with high movement, Dimension Door, or going Ethereal. Also, the Dodge chain of Feats is almost always a given, so Mobility further reduces AoO.

Still, there are a fair number of things that just dont quite make sense to me about the Monk. Monks get Concentration as a class skill? WHY? Other then one epic feat that uses it for an alternate Sunder, why would a Monk burn any points on Concentration?

My only real complaint about the Monk is that it is way too dependent upon Buffs. With the right set of Buffs, they are godly, but without them, they just dont quite cut it.

END COMMUNICATION

 

[Ridley's Cohort]

i'm going to slightly disagree on two points.

1 at really low elvels 1-3ish everyone even the fighter sucks at damage dealing the monk doesn't look that bad in comparison IMO.

2. I'd say the standardly built monk sucks at daamge dealing. I've seen way to many monk characters with a 10 str complaning about not kicking butt in a fight.

The fighter gets that extra fighter feat, so he can easily pick up exotic weapon bastard sword at 1st level. He will be doing something like d10+3 to the monk's d6+2. That's a 50% edge in damage. You are correct that the fighter has only an extra +2 to hit, which might not be noticeable against low CR targets.

The Half-Orc route is a reasonable way to put more punch into the monk, but it doesn't give the same boost it does to fighters. The problem is monks lose out if they shortchange their Int. We are getting back to the problem that most classes have 2 dump stats and the monk has only 1. I think a 16 Str 10 Int monk is at best a very small improvement over a 14 Str 12 Int monk -- it a good option for some tastes but it is not a solution to the big picture problems.

 

[Staffan]

Re: Attacking at Right Angles...

Still, there are a fair number of things that just dont quite make sense to me about the Monk. Monks get Concentration as a class skill? WHY? Other then one epic feat that uses it for an alternate Sunder, why would a Monk burn any points on Concentration?

Well, the reason they get it is probably flavor. Monks are supposed to do a lot of meditation and stuff.

Oh, and they do have one spell-like ability to use Concentration with as well.

 

[Storminator]

I'm in the midst of playing a high level monk (level 16, CR 18 due to template), and without the benes from alternate books, I'd be fairly useless. The fighter in our party deals enormous amounts of damage, and hits all the time. I'm not even in the same ballpark there.

The monk is a great partner. He pairs with the rogue to scout, and provides flanking if things go wrong. He pairs with the fighter on the front lines (but he better not stand there alone!). He can either take the fight to spellcasters and archers that prefer not to get smacked, or he protect the parties mages and archers if someone gets near them. With his speed (and other movement powers) he can switch from role to role at will.

But there are plenty of times in D&D when it just comes down to a beatdown. And then you'll wish you had more whoopass in that can.

A couple of points about monk powers:
1) I've never used my poison immunity except in drinking contest.
2) Every spell ever cast on me has beat my SR.
3) Never seen disease.
4) Stunning fist rarely works on tough guys. Same with Quivering Palm.
5) I haven't seen a foe in 5 levels that won't beat that 20/+1 DR. At this level, even the mooks have magic weapons.
6) Ki Strike has NEVER come in handy

That's the bad, here's the good:
1) Abundant Step rocks
2) I leap like a madman (using the d20 Modern jump checks I have a +81)
3) I am very hard to kill. Even the day the DM swore to kill me he didn't.
4) Improved Evasion is easily the best ability I have. Everyone else gets Pro vs Elements when we go to battle, I don't (fireball, lightning, cone of cold, who cares?)
5) Deflect Arrows has been useful, but rarely

I have a number of items and feats from alternate sources that greatly increase my worth. Without them, I'd be a tag-along. Not overpowered at all.

PS

 

[Shard O'Glase]

The fighter gets that extra fighter feat, so he can easily pick up exotic weapon bastard sword at 1st level. He will be doing something like d10+3 to the monk's d6+2. That's a 50% edge in damage. You are correct that the fighter has only an extra +2 to hit, which might not be noticeable against low CR targets.

The Half-Orc route is a reasonable way to put more punch into the monk, but it doesn't give the same boost it does to fighters. The problem is monks lose out if they shortchange their Int. We are getting back to the problem that most classes have 2 dump stats and the monk has only 1. I think a 16 Str 10 Int monk is at best a very small improvement over a 14 Str 12 Int monk -- it a good option for some tastes but it is not a solution to the big picture problems.

I definetly agre that the fighter will have more punch, just that at really low levels it isn't a big difference. Also yes the monk has a big limit in that it requires 4 stats, my only point is no one for any class should expect to be a good combatant in mellee if they don't put a good stat in str.

Personally I think the monk is somewhat balanced in that it is versatile, a decent combattant if given the str, and virtually immune to magic. I think the monk is lame because there is very little flexibility and it has too many prime stats.

 

[Spatzimaus]

Monks get Dimension Door and Etherealness. They get Hide and Move Silently, with 4+INT skill points to pay for them. They have plenty of speed. SR, simple DR, and high saves. They can get practically anywhere. But, they just can't do very much when they get there! By the time you're 20th level, practically everyone can find a way to make your attacks worthless. Stoneskin/Inertial Barrier, Displacement, invisibility, flight, whatever. Even a high AC makes a huge difference thanks to their low BAB and no enhancement bonus to attack.

We implemented something like Silver Griffon suggested. Ki Strike was changed to give a full Enhancement bonus, although as a class ability Monks could learn new "modes" with equivalent Market Prices. So, if you had Ki Strike up to +3 you could learn to change it to a +1 Flaming Ghost Touch attack. It'd take a standard action, and you only had a very limited number of alternate modes, but it really helped.

Since it was a full Enhancement bonus it helped offset the low attack bonus, and increases damage a bit more. You'd be amazed how much difference a few points of attack bonus make.

Not to plug really old threads too much, but it's all in this thread:
http://enworld.cyberstreet.com/showthread.php?s=&threadid=31073
We've changed it a bit since then, but I didn't want to bump a two-month-old thread for minor changes.

 

[Quinn]

Having been in a game with another player who had a monk, they do seem very weak in comparison to other classes. The item restrictions limit monks considerably. Many of the items that they do get will end up being AC boosting since their combined WIS and DEX bonuses typically add up to same AC as the fighter or cleric's breastplate.

The abilities just don't come into play very much unless the DM specifically crafted encounters or challenges that utilize them. In the course of a nine month campaign, the monk's Purity of Body ability helped him once. The Slow Fall helped reduce some damage he took on a pit trap once or twice. Deflect Arrows was never used because the monk figured out that maybe he'd block the first arrow, but not the second or third that was fired his way. Improved Trip didn't work well because the monk's strength was about average. The trip failed more often than not. Evasion, Stunning Attack and Fast Movement were the monk's bread and butter. Even Flurry of Blows lost its appeal after a while as more often than not, the negative to the attacks outweighed the advantage of getting the extra attack.

His damage was not bad, but he wasn't very effective unless "buffed up" by the cleric and my wizard. Strength wasn't his forte....his points went towards Dexterity and Wisdom first, then Strength and Con. The fighter in the group benefitted far more from his strength, plus feats like weapon focus and specialization, plus magical weapons, plus whatever spells were cast upon him. Ditto the Fighter/Rogue who had sneak attacks. Ditto the Cleric who was also casting some potent spells in addition (Flame strike, Hold Person, Inflict spells). It seemed that everyone was outpacing the monk who was able to hold his own, but not really excel or distinguish himself.

The bottom line was the player enjoyed playing the monk, mostly due to the concept, but when the campaign ended, admitted it was very frustrating.

 

[Gizzard]

these stats 20 str, 12 dex, 10 con, 10 int, 16 wis, 6 chr.

Is this is a Monk? No, this is a Barbarian trapped in a Monks body. Seriously, what is this guys AC and HP from levels 1-6? Sure, you can finally deal damage like a real Fighter, but your AC is what - 11 or 12? And you are +0 on CON for HPs with d8 Hit Dice? Good luck standing in a fight with these stats.

-other stuff-

From the Good & Bad of Monks discussion:

1) Stunning Fist: Opponent is easier to hit with successive attacks and loses his action.

I dont think I've ever stunned anyone with "Stunningly Ineffective Fist". Once a round I get a shot to give some monster a lowish DC Fort save. A lot of low-level brute monsters are nothing but STR and CON. I had a Troll save on a 4 against me at 5th level. Jeez, why even risk being Rended in half for such a pathetic chance of success?

2) Improved Trip: When it works, the Monk gets a +4 to hit, a free attack at the Bab that pulled off the trip, and the opponent generally cannot full attack since getting to your feet is a move equivalent action.

Again, this requires STR. Trip a Bear or an Ogre? Ho ho ho. Only if you like them knocking you on your own butt.

3) Very Mobile: A Monk can almost always get away from or get in close to enemies that are a threat to it with high movement, Dimension Door, or going Ethereal.

D-Door doesnt show up until 12th level, Etherealness isn't until like 20! Unless your DM lets you start at these levels, its going to be a long, grim set of sessions until you get the vaunted Monk "mobility". I mean, until you get to 6th you can't even outrun the Barbarian. Mobility, blah.

I never thought of it in such brutal terms before, but Ridley is right - at low level the Monk is barely contending with the Warrior. Back to the start of this discussion - should 3.5E throw him a bone? Definitely.