Monk To Hit- I don't get it, weak?

[MrBeens]

Vs the elite soldier my monk build would need
AC: 13+
Ref: 12+
Fort: 18+
Do you see the problem here?

Vs the rats:
AC: 9+
Ref: 12+
Fort: 9+

Vs Gharash Vren
AC: 15+
Ref: 10+
Fort: 13+
Vs Archers
AC: 7+
Ref: 10+
Fort: 13+
Vs Outlaws
AC: 12+
Ref: 10+
Fort: 13+


I see some definite consistency in that almost all the fort attacks above are the worst to-hit for each creature. Gharash Vren (AC) and the rats (Ref) being the exceptions.

The numbers here show that there is nothing wrong with the monk at all - using his at will vs reflex attack he needs a 10 or 12 to hit all of the monsters in those encounters. With combat advantage that is a 8 or 10.

Either it was just a really bad run of bad luck, or someone was doing something wrong at the table. The monk character has roughly the same to hit as the wizard, there is nothing in the monk class or the way he has been built that would explain the amount of misses.

 

[Saagael]

When you say the players are wiping the floor with the monsters, do you mean they're downing monsters in 1 or 2 turns? For my group, the players are doing well when they can end combat in 3-4 turns. Maybe this is just my group, but if it takes 5 turns to bloody a monster (I think that was mentioned previously), I think monsters need to be taken down a notch.

Players should, with good luck, take out a level-appropriate monster in a round or two. I will agree that level+6 enemies are going to frustrate the group (in my experience). When I level monsters, I aim for the hit-zone to be on a natural roll of 7-10, not including combat advantage or prime shot or other bonuses. +14 to hit at level 10 is perfectly normal, and is correct for the math (it's even on the upper end, since the player started with 20 in their main stat, rather than 16 or 18).

I'd say that this group has different expectations of combat than the math has been set up to provide. I'm running a level 12 group and I still only put monsters' AC at 27-28 and their NADs at 23-26, and the game is fine. I'll parrot what has been said before: use more monsters that are at the characters' level. Big baddies can range to level+3 or level+4, but even then, you should put other monsters in to spread out of the focus-fire damage.

If you'd like, I'm experienced with Maptools and can take a look at the campaign/token to see if the math is correct (not doubting you, just trying to help).

 

[Shin Okada]

Aside from dice luck, I can think the following 2 reasons.

Most weapon wielders don't need to (or cannot) choose which defense they attack. In almost all the cases they just keep attacking AC. Implement wielders are meant to maximize their advantage by choosing right NAD, by guessing the opponents' monster roles and such. Either PCs had lower knowledge check modifiers and could not find out what their opponents were. Or maybe the player of the monk was not used to this method and just continued to aim a wrong NAD.

And, seeing from your example, the opponents in those encounters seem to have, in general, lower (or not so high) ACs comparing to NADs. Maybe it was just a bad timing to introduce an implement wielding striker. A sad incident,

Several of my friends have tested playing Monk and they are saying the class works just fine. May not be an ultimate damage dealer but they are mobile and they inflicts additional effects (including forced movement) often, comparing to other strikers.

IMHO you don't need to make a house rule. Maybe you need to let the player retrain for better power/feat choice and such. But it is too early to judge the monk class as underpowered.

 

[Colmarr]

For an At Will Power for the Players in game at present-
Fighter #1 +17 vs AC
Fighter #2 +17 vs AC
Cleric +16 vs AC
Assassin +15 vs Fort
Mage +15 vs Ref
Monk +14 vs Ref
...
Rogue +18 vs AC

Others have already commented on this, but I'll try to do so in a clear fashion.

Charnel Lord 15 Elite Soldier AC/F/R/W 30/32/26/29

The rogue would need a 12+.
The fighter would need a 13+
The monk would need a 13+ if attacking AC, 12+ if attacking Ref, or 18+ if attacking Fort.

Obviously, if your monk is choosing to attack Fort, he's doing it wrong.

Over a dozen Charnel Rats 12 Minions 26/23/26/25

The rogue would need 8+
The fighter would need 9+
The monk would need 9+ if attacking AC, 9+ if attacking Fort, or 12+ if attacking Reflex.

Again, if the monk is choosing to attack Reflex, he's doing it wrong.

Gharash Vren, Dragonborn Soldier Level 15 Soldier 32/27/24/27

The rogure would need 14+
The fighter would need 15+
The monk would need 15+ if attacking AC, 13+ if attacking Fort, or 10+ if attacking Reflex.

The monk is actually clearly most likely to hit in this encounter, especially if attacking reflex.

But the Monk is giving us real problems that we've not encountered with any of the above.

Looking at the numbers, I suspect that your player is not giving enough thought to what defence he is attacking. That really is a crucial part of being a non-AC attacker, and as shown above it can make a massive difference to your chances of success.

It's often not necessary to know whether an enemy is a brute, soldier etc to decide what defence to attack. Just picture the creature (or ask the DM for a good description) and you'll often be able to take a pretty good guess.

A lumbering monstrosity? Reflex attacks here we come.

Skittering rats? Fort probably isn't their strong suit.

 

[Doctor Proctor]

One thing I noticed in the build that was posted is that it's a little defensive. Using a normal dagger versus a parrying dagger will probably not only save the Monk a feat (I assume they get simple melee for free, right), but also give him a +1 to hit.

Then your monk could take that feat he just freed up and spend it on something to increase the utility of Elven Accuracy (some of the better feats are probably Paragon, but you're almost there). He might also want to reconsider goin with TWF and TWD, as that's two feats he's burning to get relatively minor benefits. Or rather, I should day, his feats overlap. TWF and Weapon Focus both increase damage (slightly, Bastard Sword proficiency would up your damage almost as much), while TWD and Parrying Dagger prof up your defenses. Especially in the case of the Parrying Dagger it's a bit of a waste since +1 to attack is usually better than +1 to AC. Granted, this might only affect some of his attacks, but it would still boost his chances to hit.

 

[amusingsn]

The Monk hit once last session- five hours (four combat encounters), a one off you say.

I think the problem is one or more of the following three possibilities:

1) There's something wrong with your maptools macros.
2) The information you've provided is incomplete or incorrect
3) The monk player has just been unlucky thus far and there's no reason to believe the unluckiness will continue.

Solutions:
Make sure the maptools macros are correct.
Keep a log of the actual rolls made in combat and examine them for any odd non-probable streaks.
Sit back and wait for normalcy to return to the universe.

There is definitely no reason to believe, from the information given, that there is anything wrong with monks. As far as it appears, they're balanced just fine.

 

[Akaiku]

One thing I noticed in the build that was posted is that it's a little defensive. Using a normal dagger versus a parrying dagger will probably not only save the Monk a feat (I assume they get simple melee for free, right), but also give him a +1 to hit.

Then your monk could take that feat he just freed up and spend it on something to increase the utility of Elven Accuracy (some of the better feats are probably Paragon, but you're almost there). He might also want to reconsider goin with TWF and TWD, as that's two feats he's burning to get relatively minor benefits. Or rather, I should day, his feats overlap. TWF and Weapon Focus both increase damage (slightly, Bastard Sword proficiency would up your damage almost as much), while TWD and Parrying Dagger prof up your defenses. Especially in the case of the Parrying Dagger it's a bit of a waste since +1 to attack is usually better than +1 to AC. Granted, this might only affect some of his attacks, but it would still boost his chances to hit.

Monks are implement users. The damage dice of their implements is largly irrelevent. They just happen to be able to use any weapon they are proficent in as an implement.

 

[Goonalan]

Just to report back, and stir things up a little- we played last night with the new build Monk who is +15 vs NAD now after a rebuild, and will more than likely be +16 after a second rebuild tonight, the reason...

Out of all the PCs in game- 2 X Fighter, Cleric, Mage, Assassin and the dear old Monkey; then the guy that hit least (again noticeably so) was the Monk.

However he was an improvement on last session (much better on reflection).

The problem is this- bad dice rolls; poor choices as to which defence to attack, we're fairly certain having watched him in action for another 5 hours.

The Player in question drifts in and out of the game a little, he lives in a shared house and there's usually several other people there during game time (he gets distracted). He misses some (sometimes a lot) of the info I do via Skype- "a ferocious Brute of Minotaur staggers into view, bellows a challenge and awkwardly manouevres towards the group", the Monk obviously tagets Fort when it gets to his turn having missed the intro.

So, more fool him, the other players will attempt to warn him ahead of time, as will I but most of it is down to targetting issues...

I sent the player the link to this thread last week, hopefully he'll have a read here and pick up some more hints and tips, he hasn't had chance as of yet.

Thanks for all the help- much appreciated.

Cheers Paul

 

[ValhallaGH]

I'm glad we could help you figure it out.

Good luck helping the guy out.

 

[keterys]

As a random suggestion to get him thinking about defenses - make them visible for a session or two. It's easy to do in Maptools, and has a couple benefits (the PCs don't have to ask if they hit or not, they more quickly do powers, etc).

Once he gets thinking 'Fort attack vs fast stuff. Ref attack vs big stuff' kinda thing, he'll probably improve drastically.