Monk To Hit- I don't get it, weak?

[Goonalan]

So the new character is a 10th level Monk- Dex 22 with a +3 Implement (Ki whatsit).

With whatever for example power his To Hit is-

Half-Level (5) + Dex (6) + Ki (3) = 14

Whereas the 10th Level Rogue with Dex 22 and +3 Dagger is-

Half-Level (5) + Dex (6) + Dagger (6) + Rogue Weapon Talent (1) = 18

I thought the Monk would have an extra +3 for his Unarmed Bonus but when I build it in the Character Builder it doesn't show up...

Have I gone mad?

Does the Striker Rogue have +4 To Hit over the Monk just because he has a Dagger rather than a Ki whatsit, please someone help me to see what's going on here.

Goonalan

 

[chitzk0i]

The monk's attacks are all versus fort, reflex, or will.

 

[yesnomu]

Also rogues are very accurate, with that dagger bonus. But they're usually attacking AC.

 

[babinro]

Agreed, you're comparing an implement user to a weapon class user. The attack rolls will always be about 3 or 4 away from one another.

Just like how AC tends to be about 2-3 points higher than Fort, Reflex, Will for the vast majority of creatures.

All told, the Monk should be able to keep up on the attack roll end of things especially with its higher likelihood to gain combat advantage over other implement users such as a wizard or warlock

 

[Doctor Proctor]

Agreed, you're comparing an implement user to a weapon class user. The attack rolls will always be about 3 or 4 away from one another.

Just like how AC tends to be about 2-3 points higher than Fort, Reflex, Will for the vast majority of creatures.

All told, the Monk should be able to keep up on the attack roll end of things especially with its higher likelihood to gain combat advantage over other implement users such as a wizard or warlock

Exactly. If you want a fair comparison, then look at the Sorcerer or Warlock. They also go for the NADs (or FRW if you prefer) and would have the same +14 (+5 1/2 level +6 stat and +3 for magic implement) as the monk.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Also rogues are very accurate, with that dagger bonus. But they're usually attacking AC.

They can often attack Reflex, but that requires careful selection of powers. And attacking Will and Fort is even rarer for them.

OTOH, with Piercing Strike and combat advantage, 90% of the time when I played a rogue I didn't need to bother with an encounter power, the 1-2 extra [W] dice didn't really add *that* much when I was rolling 3d8+lots for damage, and hitting a lot of monsters on a 2 or 3+.

Brad

 

[RedBeardJim]

The +3 proficiency bonus for Unarmed Strike only counts for weapon attacks. The only weapon attack I can see for monks is the melee basic attack using Unarmed Strike, which is vs. AC and does get the +3 proficiency bonus.

 

[Goonalan]

Okay I see what you are saying but in we game we swopped out a 10th level Rogue for a 10th level Monk- the creatures they are fighting (in a pumped up Pyramid of Shadows) have high ACs and usually one other stat- just increased level versions of those in the module.

The Rogue was a killer, a damage machine.

The Monk hit once last session- five hours (four combat encounters), a one off you say.

In the last four sessions, 20 hours, the Monk has hit... I don't know the percentage but certainly less than half as often as the Rogue was hitting, to the point that the player is bored out of his mind with combat. This has become a problem, not just noticeable but obvious to all.

I've just read through this again before posting, it's much much less than 50% of the Rogue's hits, remembering back (and I've got copious notes), the Monk failed to hit at all in at least five combats in the last 4 sessions. We spent two entire sessions cheering his attack rolls.

The other players are constantly cajoling (in a friendly way- we're all good guys), and when he does roll high it turns out the bad guy he's fighting has higher Fort than AC even.

So we've played 20+ hours of Monk so far, that's quite a while, and maybe we've had a bad run but the Cleric hits more often, and does more damage.

Previous to the arrival of the Monk the Cleric occupied some position ten to fifteen yards behind all of the other PCs in the combat capabilities table- he's a badly built PC (from a pimped POV- he's a character PC built for style).

So honestly, I don't see it- maybe 20 hours of bad die rolls but it's not the case... If we go one more session like the last four then the Monk's done, particularly as the swap-out was a killer.

Don't go into why we swopped out, tell me what I can do to fix the Monk because the only way I see it going is away from the Party, unless I fix something.

 

[Davachido]

1st off, make the monk take implement expertise giving it +15 to hit instead of +14.

I would suggest looking at the FRW of the monsters, on average the monk should be hitting about 50% of the time. Thus the FRW of most monsters should be approx 24-25.

The monk should be trying to get CA as much as possible to hit these defenses of 24-25, so will be +17 to hit so will hit the creatures on 7-8.

The monk should also be trying to have attacks hitting a variety of defenses, this is so that if the creature has a slighty higher fort def then he should try hitting the will def. Remember most creatures have at least one defense that is close to its AC which you shouldn't be trying to aim form, the other 2 will be 2-3 lower or in some cases 5-6 lower. For most implement users it is key that they find which defense its best to attack for the given creature.

Hope that helps.

(If you find the monk still has problems to hit then either the dice gods aren't with him or you should lower the NAD of your monsters by 1.)

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

They can often attack Reflex, but that requires careful selection of powers. And attacking Will and Fort is even rarer for them.

OTOH, with Piercing Strike and combat advantage, 90% of the time when I played a rogue I didn't need to bother with an encounter power, the 1-2 extra [W] dice didn't really add *that* much when I was rolling 3d8+lots for damage, and hitting a lot of monsters on a 2 or 3+.

Brad

Dagger-wielding rogues are probably best off to not look for high W powers, but powers that have good secondary benefits... If you ever make the switch to Rapier, this can change.