Monk Variant- Martial Artist

TheCrazyMuffinMan said:
So instead of binary bonus feat choices, I just guarantee all the goodies at different levels? Does this include the ones that were binary for the monk?

Well, they can always choose the binary ones with their normal feat allocation.

But giving them a guaranteed special ability (unique to that class) makes them more likely to stick with the class rather than "dipping" into other classes.

Heck, you might want to turn them into unique class abilities rather than "feats" that anyone else can take.

Having a class of just "feats" is what the fighter is, so its important to differentiate your class from that.

`Le
 

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One of you wants to kick it up a notch, one of you wants to kick it down a notch. Hmm...

And to Arkhandus: Is it really as easy to mitigate this fellow's losses as it seems? hmm... I've clarified both counterattack abilities and reduced the L20 bonuses to normal abilities to counteract this issue, as well as dropped the die down to d8. Does this work against the whole "Fighter+" thing?

I'm also considering giving it the monk/paladin restriction against multiclassing again.
 
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Arkhandus said:
Soooo....... Your Monk is a Fighter+ with better Reflex saves, more skill points, more class skills, a few extraordinary abilities, a very effective counterattack ability (and one that does not mention any limit to melee combat, so we can assume that a Monk who takes Martial Weapon Proficiency - Composite Longbow can also take a free shot at anyone who shoots him first), unarmed combat prowess, rapid unarmed attacks, some skill at evading harm without using clunky, heavy, movement-constraining armor, an Epic feat at 20th-level in place of a normal, non-Epic feat at that level, more-limited but still very useful bonus feat choices, and no armor or weapon proficiencies unless they spend a normal feat or dip 1 level into Fighter.........

I dunno if you've beefed up Fighters in your game, but otherwise I'd call this "Monk" just a Fighter+ or Fighter++. If you're intending to go that route, why not just convert a few monkish class features into feats and add those to the list of bonus feats a Fighter can choose?

This may be a doublepost, but if you want, you can look at the current version. I hope it addresses your issues with this class. The regression to d8 and the constraints on counterattack should help at least.
 
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Still too many goodies, and you've actually made it kind of worse. Those custom Knockout feats are very strong, very much so the Improved one which is probably broken (and far superior to the standard monk's Quivering Palm). Your removal of the d10 hit dice just balanced out the greater skills and a bit of the Reflex save advantage of the monk over a fighter. The restrictions on Counterattack are good but it's still a strong ability regardless (not broken perhaps, but strong).

The feat replacements are somehow worse than the previous feats you had in their place....DR 10/-? Better than a Barbarian's? When the standard monk just gets useless DR 20/magic that protects him from nothing but mooks roughly 16-19 levels lower than himself?

Overwhelming Critical may've been an Epic feat, but it was a cruddy one. Your custom feat replacement is much stronger. Epic Dodge was a potent Epic feat, but not too awesome considering that epic foes will be attacking several times per round and likely hit more than once. DR 10/- is more generally-useful, though admittedly bit weaker overall. Shouldn't be giving an Epic or Epic-equivalent feat at 20th-level, anyway.



The abilities your version of the Monk gives up are:
Purity of Body, Ki Strike, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, and Empty Body.
The other stuff your Monk gives up is:
Good Will save progression and a few near-useless weapon proficiencies.

What he gains over a standard Monk:
Intimidate as a class skill, no alignment or multiclass restrictions, full Base Attack Bonus, 7 or 8 additional feats, 2-3 extra class features that range from slightly to absurdly stronger than feats.

What class features does he retain?
Full unarmed combat ability (except for Ki Strike and Quivering Palm, which makes it far more imperative for him to pick up an overpriced Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as possible, which'll take quite a while to be able to afford). Unarmored AC bonuses. Fast Movement. 3 bonus feats besides the aforementioned ones and Improved Unarmed Strike. Evasion. Still Mind. Slow Fall. Improved Evasion. Perfect Self. And strong Reflex saves, which a Fighter also lacks.


Note that you only removed Supernatural class features and a few other things; you never mentioned removal of the others that are mystical in source/effect but not Supernatural; Fast Movement and Perfect Self.

Regardless..... At the very least your Monk has better Reflex saves, Evasion and Improved Evasion, Slow Fall, Still Mind, unarmored and unarmored combat prowess, Counterattack, Improved Counterattack, and a total of 11 or 12 feats (so about the same as a Fighter, though with less choice and only geared towards unarmed combat). So in place of a bit of feat-choice flexibility on the Fighter's part, and use of normal armor and weapons which are somewhat better than the monkish unarmed/armored fighting ability, the character is much tougher against magic-users/psionicists/monsters, and able to attack much more rapidly (counterattack and flurry of blows). They're also much tougher or much more offensively capable at 20th-level, depending on their feat choices and the capstone ability/feat.

Verdict: Still too strong, though kind of close to Fighters. Just might be roughly balanced against Barbarians but I dunno (the 20th-level ability is a real problem).
 

Arkhandus said:
Still too many goodies, and you've actually made it kind of worse. Those custom Knockout feats are very strong, very much so the Improved one which is probably broken (and far superior to the standard monk's Quivering Palm). Your removal of the d10 hit dice just balanced out the greater skills and a bit of the Reflex save advantage of the monk over a fighter. The restrictions on Counterattack are good but it's still a strong ability regardless (not broken perhaps, but strong).

The feat replacements are somehow worse than the previous feats you had in their place....DR 10/-? Better than a Barbarian's? When the standard monk just gets useless DR 20/magic that protects him from nothing but mooks roughly 16-19 levels lower than himself?

Overwhelming Critical may've been an Epic feat, but it was a cruddy one. Your custom feat replacement is much stronger. Epic Dodge was a potent Epic feat, but not too awesome considering that epic foes will be attacking several times per round and likely hit more than once. DR 10/- is more generally-useful, though admittedly bit weaker overall. Shouldn't be giving an Epic or Epic-equivalent feat at 20th-level, anyway.



The abilities your version of the Monk gives up are:
Purity of Body, Ki Strike, Wholeness of Body, Diamond Body, Diamond Soul, Timeless Body, Abundant Step, Quivering Palm, Tongue of the Sun and Moon, and Empty Body.
The other stuff your Monk gives up is:
Good Will save progression and a few near-useless weapon proficiencies.

What he gains over a standard Monk:
Intimidate as a class skill, no alignment or multiclass restrictions, full Base Attack Bonus, 7 or 8 additional feats, 2-3 extra class features that range from slightly to absurdly stronger than feats.

What class features does he retain?
Full unarmed combat ability (except for Ki Strike and Quivering Palm, which makes it far more imperative for him to pick up an overpriced Amulet of Mighty Fists as soon as possible, which'll take quite a while to be able to afford). Unarmored AC bonuses. Fast Movement. 3 bonus feats besides the aforementioned ones and Improved Unarmed Strike. Evasion. Still Mind. Slow Fall. Improved Evasion. Perfect Self. And strong Reflex saves, which a Fighter also lacks.


Note that you only removed Supernatural class features and a few other things; you never mentioned removal of the others that are mystical in source/effect but not Supernatural; Fast Movement and Perfect Self.

Regardless..... At the very least your Monk has better Reflex saves, Evasion and Improved Evasion, Slow Fall, Still Mind, unarmored and unarmored combat prowess, Counterattack, Improved Counterattack, and a total of 11 or 12 feats (so about the same as a Fighter, though with less choice and only geared towards unarmed combat). So in place of a bit of feat-choice flexibility on the Fighter's part, and use of normal armor and weapons which are somewhat better than the monkish unarmed/armored fighting ability, the character is much tougher against magic-users/psionicists/monsters, and able to attack much more rapidly (counterattack and flurry of blows). They're also much tougher or much more offensively capable at 20th-level, depending on their feat choices and the capstone ability/feat.

Verdict: Still too strong, though kind of close to Fighters. Just might be roughly balanced against Barbarians but I dunno (the 20th-level ability is a real problem).

Is it still possible to save this class without caving it in further somehow?

Finally, thank you for your analysis.
 
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Arkhandus said:
I dunno, it's your class. I have no idea what exactly you're going for. Right now it's a general mix of Fighter and Monk.

The intent is: Part fighter, part monk, more based on combative skill than the use of Ki. The reason I'm willing to make strong efforts to balance it is because I intend to actually use it in a game, and I want to make it acceptable for the DM. Also, I have addressed even slightly exotic goodies that I missed, and held Counterattack to one degree, at a high level.
 
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TheCrazyMuffinMan, PM me your email address. I will fire off some free Monk stuff to you that I wrote/publish.

`Le
 

Were I designing this class (and looking at my notes, I see that I'm doing something similar), to make the class as flexible/generic/universal as possible, I'd make the class so that there were several level-dependent benefits available at each level (perhaps as many as 5+/level), somewhat like the Rogue gets, and vary the weapons available dependent upon style.

Of course, to do that, you'd want to look at the abilities ascribed to a wide variety of RW martial arts, like Boxing, Savate, Capoira, Escrima, Shaolin Kung Fu, Pankration, Jeet Kune Do, etc., so you could get a feel for what weapons they use and what maneuvers they have.

Not that I'd advise doing all that from scratch- there are all kinds of martial arts magazines and even RPG sourcebooks out there that can make the task easier. Two good starting points would be the GURPS Martial Arts sourcebook or HERO's martial arts system.
 

TheLe said:
TheCrazyMuffinMan, PM me your email address. I will fire off some free Monk stuff to you that I wrote/publish.

`Le


PM is privileged, sadly. Also, my email is the same as my Yahoo handle (typoon_160), at yahoo.com.

@Danny: Also, to really try to draw on all those disciplines would be awesome, though long and involved even with *books.

I still like the way you think, Dannyalcatraz.
 

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