Monk - what do you like and dislike?

[Ion]

I think I'm going to use monks as thief-takers run by the "Church of Law".

 

[Hussar]

I've got a player who took a feat that allowed him to take levels in monk and paladin freely. Can't remember the name of it offhand. He's currently a halfling monk 5/paladin 4. Interesting combo. AC blows chunks, but, since his damage continues to scale with the paly levels, he actually makes a fairly decent front line fighter.

What is simply astonishing is his saving throws. High double digits for all three. Against pretty much anything I toss at him, he fails on a 1. Kudos on an interesting build.

 

[Dog Moon]

I think it would have bee cool to have a Generic class like 'Hand-to-hand man', though obviously with a better name and then when you would gain a new special ability, you see like '1st Ability'. Then, you look at your list of 'Fighting styles' and check out the '1st Ability' and that is what you get. That way you can insert one of multiple different styles, from what could be any different school of martial arts to kickboxing, wrestler, or w/e. This allows you to insert multiple different types of monks into one.

I don't know how well it would do, but I think it would be cool to have many different styles because in real life, every monk isn't the same style anyway. Some TV shows/movies are actually good at this and it's awesome seeing two different styles of martial artists fight against each other.

I suppose this could be done with feats, but I'd rather the entire class be a little more varied than just a few feats.

 

[Klaus]

I like the monk a lot.

I like that flurry of blows has NO penalty at higher levels. The reduced penalties means that the monk has a nearly full BAB progression with flurry, beginning at -2 and going all the way to +15 (misses only 3 points).

I like that the monk's unarmed strikes can be enchanted just like a weapon ("treated as natural or manufactured weapons").

I like that the monk can't stand toe-to-toe against a fighter, but can defeat a fighter if allowed to use his stealth, acrobatics and special powers (stunning fist = drop weapon).

I like that the monk can represent a pakrationist, a wild natural fighter, a Highlander (fast movement = the Quickening).

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

While I like the Monk, I agree with many that it really belongs in OA, flavorwise- especially since the OA modification of it also does away with the multiclass restriction and the expanded monk weapon list.

I like fast movement, AC improvements, FoB, deflecting arrows & so forth, but except for the dimension walking and acrobatic falling abilities, I don't care much for their high level abilities.

What I dislike so much is that the class only models one archetype of the unarmed/light combatants- the aforemention Shaolin master type. Pankration wrestlers? Capoirists? Thai Kickboxers? Savatte masters? Judo practitioners? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class.

Were I redesigning the class, I'd:

1) Give the class a more concept neutral name, like Unarmed Warrior, or if I wanted extra flavor, Master of the Empty Hand (or some such). After all, the concept of unarmed combat isn't neccessarily linked to a monastic lifestyle.

2) Broaden the way martial arts work a little. Since some martial arts are aggressive, there would be a high-damage option. A martial art that depends more on throws and holds wouldn't see a standard damage increase, but would instead get BAB bonuses for such maneuvers and enhancement to non-lethal damage. To reflect this, a PC would choose a School of unarmed combat at 1st level, which would include associated feat selections and special abilities

Mechanically, a School would probably be a cafeteria of offerings, with successive choices based on previous decisions... For example, it would be very difficult for a PC who took a "reactive" School to take certain "aggressive" abilities, and vice versa.

3) Monk weapon lists would vary from School to School as well. After all, the weapons used in Karate differ from those of Escrima (short staves) or Capoira (in extreme cases, they can fight with or even in manacles) and so forth.

 

[Felon]

While What I dislike so much is that the class only models one archetype of the unarmed/light combatants- the aforemention Shaolin master type. Pankration wrestlers? Capoirists? Thai Kickboxers? Savatte masters? Judo practitioners? None of them (and so many more) are truly represented by the class....

2) Broaden the way martial arts work a little. Since some martial arts are aggressive, there would be a high-damage option. A martial art that depends more on throws and holds wouldn't see a standard damage increase, but would instead get BAB bonuses for such maneuvers and enhancement to non-lethal damage. To reflect this, a PC would choose a School of unarmed combat at 1st level, which would include associated feat selections and special abilities

Mechanically, a School would probably be a cafeteria of offerings, with successive choices based on previous decisions... For example, it would be very difficult for a PC who took a "reactive" School to take certain "aggressive" abilities, and vice versa.

3) Monk weapon lists would vary from School to School as well. After all, the weapons used in Karate differ from those of Escrima (short staves) or Capoira (in extreme cases, they can fight with or even in manacles) and so forth.

I don't think its feasbile to offer the breadth of fighting styles that many people seem to want within a single class. Unless, of course, the styles are represented as feats, in which case we're back to letting the fighter be the best possible hand-to-hand combatant just its the best at all other forms of feat-intensive combat styles.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

I don't think its feasbile to offer the breadth of fighting styles that many people seem to want within a single class. Unless, of course, the styles are represented as feats, in which case we're back to letting the fighter be the best possible hand-to-hand combatant just its the best at all other forms of feat-intensive combat styles.

Its not as bad as you might imagine- I did something like this in 2Ed. (Admittedly, it was easy considering that HERO 4Ed had a chart in its Ultimate Martial Artist release that allowed conversion of that games' martial arts maneuvers into D&D stats.) Honestly, there are all kinds of other RPG systems that have done this successfully- like GURPS and HERO- and all that need be done is think in a similar fashion.

It would require a little bit more typing on someone's part...but no more than a typical section of new Feats or Spells.

There would be a set core of skills in the class, but everything else would flow from player choices.

The Schools would basically be a combination of skills, feats and class abilities, tied together with certain benefits to membership in a certain School...almost like a prestige class within a class. The unique class abilities would be awarded like some of the various Rogue abilities.

While basic School features would be available to any PC willing to spend skill points or burn Feats, the innermost teachings - the unique class abilities- would only be available to class members. Like the current version of the class, certain feats would be available as bonus feats, but which feats you could take would be limited by School.

So, for example, a practitioner of the "hidden" martial art Capoira would have skills like Perform (Dance) and Escape Artist as class skills, would have a Feat cascade of movement- related feats, and the weapons list would include small blades, manacles, chains and some other stuff. Class abilities might include flurry of blows (with combat & AC modifiers related to Perform (Dance)), Jumping bonuses, and so forth.

Someone proficient in a similarly "hidden" martial art, Escrima, would have similar skills, and feat selections, but would have short staves as weapons. They would also get the ability to improvise weapons with comparative ease, and still flurry with them as "monk" weapons, but their unarmed damage would not increase with level.

In contrast, a practitioner of Pankration would not have flurry of blows, but would have bonuses for grappling, and would increase HTH damage after a successful grapple. They would have no monk weapons beyond perhaps some kind of gauntlets. Instead of AC and speed bonuses, their HD type and Con might increase over time.

 

[Felon]

Its not as bad as you might imagine- I did something like this in 2Ed. (Admittedly, it was easy considering that HERO 4Ed had a chart in its Ultimate Martial Artist release that allowed conversion of that games' martial arts maneuvers into D&D stats.) Honestly, there are all kinds of other RPG systems that have done this successfully- like GURPS and HERO- and all that need be done is think in a similar fashion.

It would require a little bit more typing on someone's part...but no more than a typical section of new Feats or Spells.

But much, much more space than is devoted to a single class's description. That's only one of the reasons why restricting the viability of unarmed combat to a single class is a poor design decision. The other RPG's you mention don't have classes. Their a la carte martial arts is akin to picking feats in D&D.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Sometimes you have to do a lot of writing to get a class done right. Look at the Psion- it takes up several pages more than most of the PHB classes.

And even though the current design is open to several classes, what amount of text devoted to arcane spells? Or to fighting feats that only fighters will ever be able to use?

Besides, once you set up the School system mechanic, you have the option of opening it up to other (proabably prestige) classes, or such closely related classes as the Ninja or the Soulknife.

 

[Felon]

And even though the current design is open to several classes, what amount of text devoted to arcane spells?

Considerable--but as you say, it's open to a number of classes. It's not all stuffed into the wizard's class description.

Or to fighting feats that only fighters will ever be able to use?

Not that much really. The PHBII was notable for finally upping the count of high-end feats.

Besides, once you set up the School system mechanic, you have the option of opening it up to other (proabably prestige) classes, or such closely related classes as the Ninja or the Soulknife.

Or you can design it to be openly compatable from the start by incorporating it into the feat subsystem. I'm not hearing what the basis for objecting to that is.