Monk with 2-handed staff and unarmed attack?

[Zaruthustran]

Did you see "The Brotherhood of the Wolf"? Do you remember Manny, the badass American Indian who beat up a bunch of guys in the first scene? He used a staff and his feet, mainly.

So, I'm wondering. Can a 1st level monk use a staff 2-handed AND attack with his feet in the same round?

From the PHB page 39:

"A monk's attacks may be with either fist interchangeably or even from elbows, knees, and feet. Making an off-hand attack makes no sense for a monk striking unarmed."

Just below that, it says:

"A monk fighting with a one-handed weapon can make an unarmed strike as an off-hand attack, but she suffers the standard penalties for two-weapon fighting."

But if a monk's unarmed attack makes use of a foot or knee, why must he be restricted to one-handed weapons? Why can't a monk use a staff and kick?

We see this technique (2-handed wep and kick) all the time in cinema and real martial arts classes.

Bonus point: going by a strict interpretation of the written rule, a 2nd level monk/ranger can hold a longsword in one hand, a torch in the other, and get his two attacks per round (sword and kick). This is clearly allowed, but the second example I cited can be interpreted to restrict weapon + unarmed attacks to one-handed weapons.

I think a 1st-level monk should be able to attack with a 2-handed staff and a kick in the same round (suffering usual penalties for attacking with 2 weapons).

What say this board?

-z

Bonus question: can the monk/ranger mentioned above hold a shield on his left arm instead of the torch?

 

[Pax]

Personally, I find the staff SO thematic as a weapon for monks, I think the staff should be trated as any other "monk" weapon. IOW, fighting withit, counts pretty much as fighting with empty hands -- I would allow Flurry of Blows -or- double-weapon penalties, whichever the player preferred; I woudl always treat the additional attack(s) as being with the second "end" of the staff, WRT enhancement bonusses and weapon enchantments.

I also would not penalise a monk who wanted to whack someone with a staff, then kick them, as part of a flurry of blows (or other multiple attack routine effect).

I'd even allow the monk to idly HOLD the staff in one hand, and punch with the other -- then kick with a foot. That's really only descriptive stuff, IMO.

However, the above is NOT supported by a strict reading of the rules.

 

[Dr. Zoom]

Correct, the quarterstaff is not a monk weapon according to the PH. But OA adds the quarterstaff to the list of special monk weapons.

 

[Ranger REG]

Actually in the PH, the quarterstaff is part of the monk's weapon proficiencies, but only three -- kama, nunchaku, and siangham -- can benefit from the UAB and the additional attacks.

In OA, the "special monk weapon" list expanded to include the quarterstaff among other new weapons appeared in the book but -- I don't know if it's an oversight -- dropped siangham.

 

[Kibo]

The Trouble With Tribbles

I would actually just lump this into the "problems with Hit Points" basket.

A lot of martial fighting, swords included, had "unarmed" attacks as componants of the art. Knees to the groin, pommel strikes, etc. With the monk and the way their damage escalates, but their number of attacks tops out at four really complicates things. Or perhaps just leaves room for a wealth of interpritation. That d20 of damage might be a slow-mo no shadow kick that could shatter a boulder, or it could be an elaborate and fantastic combination worthy of Jet Li's or Jackie Chan's wildest dreams. Or any mix of those two extremes.

It always comes back to what's an attack, a single blow, or a combination of manuvers that leads to injury, and what do hit points really measure. Roll low damage and I usually go for some sort of close call. Maybe a nice elbow to the face, side kick, knee to the groin, or swick kick to the shin are in the realm of 1 to 3 hp. A solid crack from the pommel of a sword might be a 4 to 5. And so on. It's really up to your dm.

 

[Kae'Yoss]

My tuppence

Just add the quarterstaff (or bo, as a monk would probably call it) to the list of monk weapons.

Now you can make "monk attacks" with the staff as well as with fist, knee, foot, or whatever. You would gain no additional attack with the off-hand part of the bo, though (you already have flurry of blows, maybe even lightning fists, and monks have better iterative attacks anyway, so that would be unbalancing in the extreme!)

For example, if you have +10/+10/+7/+4 in unarmed attacks (including flurry of blows).

You could make the first attack with the bo, the second with your head, the third with the other bo head, and the fourth with a foot. Or you could make them all with the feet, or with the bo (alternating between the two heads) or something. You would not gain an off-hand attack with it.

If you wanted off-hand attacks, you had to use a onehanded or light weapon in the first hand (and you'd get only the normal attack bonus, not the unarmed) and a single off-hand attack with a fist or something. So better use the unarmed attacks all along.

 

[Zaruthustran]

Doh. I forgot to check D&D FAQ.

Well, looks like the FAQ answers my question.

"If the monk wields a two-handed weapon, he can use a kick
or similar attack as an off-hand attack. This works just like an
off-hand attack made along with a one-handed weapon attack."

This makes me very happy. I have visions of a very strong monk with Improved Disarm and a quarterstaff. First, he beats his opponents' weapons out of their hands (relatively easy for a strong character with a Large weapon). Then, he kicks ass (getting 1.5 x Str bonus with the staff as well as his unarmed attack damage).

 

[Ranger REG]

Gee, maybe I shouldn't have said anything at all.

 

[Legildur]

What happens if you use the OA rules and allow a quarterstaff (or Bo as a special monk weapon?

Do you treat it as a double-weapon or single-weapon (1.5x str bonus to damage) when flurrying?

Given the FAQ says you can still make an unarmed attack even when holding a weapon, I'd FOB with the staff 2 handed (and get the 1.5x str bonus to damage) and then follow up with unarmed attacks for the remainder. Is this allowed?

 

[Ranger REG]

Use the better of the two.

In this case, the single-classed monk would treat quarterstaff as a two-handed weapon (and gain 1.5x Str bonus to weapon damage) and employ FOB with the monk's UAB.