Monkey Grip

[starwed]

A medium sized long sword is, what, 3 to 4 feet long, in total length?

In D&D, the long sword is a one-handed weapon. A one-handed weapon is considered one size category smaller than the being it's made for. So a medium sized long sword is a Small object, and a large sized long sword is a Medium object. So monkey grip lets her use a weapon that's somewhere between 5-7 feet long.

Can be nasty when used with a greatsword of one size category higher. One of my player's tends to do that alot, and mooks tend to explode around him.

Just hope that he never notices he'd be doing more damage by power attacking for 2 instead of wielding the large weapon... ^_^ It's only mechanically good if you use a bastard sword/maul etc...

 

[Sejs]

Just hope that he never notices he'd be doing more damage by power attacking for 2 instead of wielding the large weapon... ^_^ It's only mechanically good if you use a bastard sword/maul etc...

Plus the use of PA avoids the problem with finding weapon upgrades or replacements later. How many large enchanted greatswords do you normally come across?

How big is a Huge longsword?

Oh, say about as big as a large greatsword.

You do get to take an additional -2 penalty to hit for using that huge longsword over the large greatsword, though. Hooray!

 

[Destil]

Don't forget the size bonus to disarm, though.

And, Wicket... Tidus? Cloud? Payne? Tiynud...?

 

[Seloryen]

I don't think the abuse of monkey grip has gone in your area as it has around here. Monkey is often used for the fighter at first lvl to sit and swing a Large greataxe for the 3d6 or if he wanted to set it up too be really nasty in the long run take that with oversized twf and fling two gr8axes. That is when the fighter starts to be really nasty. Then you can get even meaner if you want to and add in something dumb like a warblade and throw all of this into the mix and have one fighter character with d12's spells and bigger weapons than you would ever need flinging d12s at everything.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Doesn't the current Enlarge spell make you and everything worn/carried one size category larger?
If yes, then my 4 foot elven girl, with monkey grip and with the two large sized long swords* (and two-weapon style specialization, etc.), would now be a 7 to 10 foot tall elven girl with money grip and with two huge sized** long swords.
Not a bad combination, for a mere fighter/wizard 1st/1st.

* Sized for large creatures. Actually medium sized objects.
** Sized for huge creatures. Actually large sized objects.

 

[Sejs]

Not a bad combination, for a mere fighter/wizard 1st/1st.

Monkey Grip: -2 to hit, off-hand weapon cannot be up-sized.

Enlarge Person: -1 size penalty to hit (offset by the +2 increase to str).

Two-Weapon Fighting, off-hand weapon not light (assuming TWF feat): -4 to hit.

Fighter (1)/Wizard (1) BAB: +1.

Ultimately, you might be able to put out some damage, but you won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn. Damage is fine, but accuracy is final.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

Monkey Grip: -2 to hit, off-hand weapon cannot be up-sized.

Where does it say the off-hand weapon cannot be up-sized? Have they modified the feat? (?)

That doesn't make sense to me. What goes for the main hand, should go for the off-hand. Monkey grip, as I see it, is a supernatural strength gained by the entire body (otherwise, said 4 foot tall elven girl's shoulder would be dislocated with the first swing of that 10 foot long sword.)

Enlarge Person: -1 size penalty to hit (offset by the +2 increase to str).

Noted.

Two-Weapon Fighting, off-hand weapon not light (assuming TWF feat): -4 to hit.

If you are enlarged to Large size, you would treat a longsword meant for a Medium sized creature as a Light Weapon, no? (In this case, the girl is wielding a longsword meant for a large creature, so it cannot be treated as a Light Weapon obviously.)

Fighter (1)/Wizard (1) BAB: +1.

Ambidexterity is needed here. And high strength. Weapon finesse? (?)

Ultimately, you might be able to put out some damage, but you won't be able to hit the broad side of a barn. Damage is fine, but accuracy is final.

(?)

 

[Hypersmurf]

Where does it say the off-hand weapon cannot be up-sized?

In Complete Warrior, under 'Monkey Grip'.

Have they modified the feat? (?)

Since Sword and Fist, yes. But there were lots of changes between 3E Monkey Grip and 3.5 Monkey Grip. The Complete Warrior version has always had a "no off-hand weapon or double weapon" prohibition.

If you are enlarged to Large size, you would treat a longsword meant for a Medium sized creature as a Light Weapon, no? (In this case, the girl is wielding a longsword meant for a large creature, so it cannot be treated as a Light Weapon obviously.)

Yes, but you'd take a -2 penalty for wielding an inappropriately-sized weapon.

Ambidexterity is needed here. And high strength. Weapon finesse?

Ambidexterity as a feat does not exist in 3.5. Weapon Finesse is of no use to someone using a longsword (unless it's a Light weapon (and arguably not even then, since the phrase 'made for a creature of your size category' might be applicable to Light weapons)... and as you note, your proposed build is not using a Light longsword even in the off-hand).

-Hyp.

 

[pawsplay]

Just hope that he never notices he'd be doing more damage by power attacking for 2 instead of wielding the large weapon... ^_^ It's only mechanically good if you use a bastard sword/maul etc...

Indeed. I did some maths a while back, and discovered Monkey Grip works best for weapons that don't follow standard size increases. If you can then add in at least one more size increase, then you're in business.

For most characters, Power Attack is better in every way.

 

[Edena_of_Neith]

I'd have to go with the 3E version of Monkey Grip, then. The off-hand weapon could be larger as well, with no increased penalties.

Monkey Grip does not make logical sense, if extrapolated literally. If only your hands and wrists are strengthened, but they are strengthened to that extent, then you will be wrecking the rest of your body very quickly trying to pick up and employ heavy weapons. Or you will be trashed as you are repeatedly thrown off your feet by the torque of a swung weapon (or, thrown off your horse or flying mount, etc.)
Also, if your sword is 7 feet long but the opponent is 1 foot away, hitting him is problematic. Just drawing your weapon is problematic in the first place (you hurl it out, watch it twirl in the air, catch it as it drops by the hilt, and start fighting then?)

I take Monkey Grip with salt.
My extrapolation of Monkey Grip is that it makes you like Tarzan. You gain supernatural strength bodywide, so that you can actually function like ... like a monkey. You could, with some training, branchalate (the feat is needed), or humble an olympic gymnast on the monkey bars (a lot of ranks in gymnastics needed.)
You could attempt branchalation without the feat, and end up splattered against a tree like George of the Jungle. You could attempt gymnastics without training, soar high into the air, and break something (possibly your neck) when you fall and hit the bars wrong.

My version of Monkey Grip grants you the ability to wield larger weapons with the ease and normality with which you'd use weapons for your size category. You must be proficient with those weapons first!
Thus, you can wield a large mace and not be thrown off balance or fall. You can swing a large long sword and not dislocate your shoulder. You can even swing two large long swords, and somehow not constantly run them into the ground, into each other, into the nearest walls, or into your friends.
Likewise, you are somehow able to unsheath the weapon (even if you are 4 feet tall and the weapon is 15 feet long, as mentioned above with the elven girl.) You can (amazing!) somehow strike at an opponent 1 foot away with said 15 foot sword (don't ask me how, because I don't know: you can just do it.)

You don't gain any BAB or damage bonuses (that's what strength and many other feats are for.) You do suffer the -2 penalty. But you can use an oversized weapon in either hand. You could pick up an oversized item and use it as a weapon. You could even pick up a person and use him as a weapon (he would probably have a problem with this.)
You CANNOT pick up and use weapons two sized categories larger. That's for the Epic Feat, which represents a major supernatural ability.

Monkey Grip requires tongue-in-cheek and suspension of belief, and more than a little humor. Otherwise, how do you mentally cope with situations where two 4 foot tall people, each equipped with two 8 foot long swords, are battling each other at 2 feet in a duel of swords, while surrounded on all sides (5 foot hexes) by battling allies, walls, ceilings, and the floor?