Monks, staffs, and superior implements

[DracoSuave]

Actually, monks can use quarterstaves as implements. First of all, that's 2 handed only - so no Crashing Wave tech or Starblade Flurry.

Using a weapon as a weapon is not the same as using it as an implement.

Using it as an implement requires less physical manipulation of the object, and more mystical channeling through the object. For all intents in purposes, it doesn't take two hands to hold, or channel energy through a 1 lb stick. It takes two hands to use such a stick as a lever to amplify physical force.

Huge difference.

A magic staff can be used as a quarterstaff, but the properties of the staff don't apply unless you're proficient with the staff implements. So the monk would only get the enhancement bonus (and the criticals, IIRC), not anything else.

I'll get back to you on this, but as far as I can tell 'weapon you are proficient in' is now a defined kind of implement. Implements only care if you are 'allowed to use that kind of implement.'

Just like a dagger qualifies as a light blade implement, and a dagger implement, staffs qualify as a staff implement, and as a weapon you are proficient in implement if you are proficient in it. Therefore, being proficient in quarterstaffs means that any given staff is 'a weapon the monk is proficient in' and therefore is of a kind of implement the monk is able to use as such, and therefore, by the rules for implements in the PHB3, a monk can use implement powers and properties on a staff.

If staffs and quarterstaves were actually equivalent, you couldn't use a Staff and Dual Implement Caster since quarterstaves are 2 handed weapons.

Except there's no such thing as 'two-handed implements'. There's implements that use up a hand, and those that use up a specific slot unique to that implement.

As well:

All quarterstaves are staffs by definition. If you can grok light blades are a weapon group AND implement kind, you can grok staff is a weapon group AND implement kind.

All implement staffs are quarterstaves by definition.

So, if A is the subset of B, and B is the subset of A, then A and B are equivalent sets.

 

[Victim]

If your class can’t normally use staffs as implements,
or if you’re not using an implement power, a
staff is simply a magic quarterstaff.

So the monk has a [something] magic staff. He is proficient with quarterstaff, not staff. Thus he can only use staff as a magic quarterstaff, losing the [something]. Then he can use THAT as an implement, gaining the enhancement bonus for his monk stuff. But the special properties were already lost due to the rule in the PHB.

A staff functions as quarterstaff. The reverse is not automatically true. A multitool can include a screwdriver, but a screwdriver is normally a single function tool and doesn't include pliers, a knife, etc. The two are not equivalent.

 

[DracoSuave]

So the monk has a [something] magic staff. He is proficient with quarterstaff, not staff. Thus he can only use staff as a magic quarterstaff, losing the [something]. Then he can use THAT as an implement, gaining the enhancement bonus for his monk stuff. But the special properties were already lost due to the rule in the PHB.

A staff functions as quarterstaff. The reverse is not automatically true. A multitool can include a screwdriver, but a screwdriver is normally a single function tool and doesn't include pliers, a knife, etc. The two are not equivalent.

You're two books and many errata behind.

 

[DracoSuave]

A staff functions as quarterstaff. The reverse is not automatically true. A multitool can include a screwdriver, but a screwdriver is normally a single function tool and doesn't include pliers, a knife, etc. The two are not equivalent.

Weapon       Prof. Damage Range Price Weight Group Properties
Quarterstaff +2    1d8     —     5 gp  4 lb.  Staff  —

Huh. Weapons table says it's a staff.

So, it's a staff but not a staff?

Please quote how this is the case, cause PHB says it's a staff.

 

[Victim]

You're two books and many errata behind.

The rules update for weapons as implements doesn't change any of the text on 240-241.

 

[DracoSuave]

The rules update for weapons as implements doesn't change any of the text on 240-241.

Great.

It's also not the point.

Magic Implements: To use an implement, including its properties and powers, you must be able to wield that kind of implement.

'Weapon you are proficient in' is a kind of implement. Monks are able to wield that kind of implement. Therefore, they can use an implement, including its properties and powers

All staves are able to be used as quarterstaffs, therefore monks are proficient in them. Therefore all staffs are implements useable by a monk, and thusly, is included the ability to use their powers.

The text 'a staff' refers to a specific staff in question, not to staffs in general, as shown by subsequent text saying 'a staff' 'the staff', etc. Just like 'that weapon' when describing weapon objects doesn't mean 'can only be used as a weapon', the same precident applies to staffs.

Thusly, what is required is that you can wield that -specific- staff as an implement, not the class of implement 'staff.'

 

[evilbob]

If staffs count as quarterstaffs does that mean a monk can use a superior implement staff?

Can a monk enchant a superior implement staff as a weapon?

I had this question myself. Here is what I have found:

A monk CAN use a staff as an implement, but only because a staff is a quarterstaff, and a monk can use a quarterstaff as an implement.

A monk DOES NOT have "staff implement" as a type of implement they can use listed in their class. Because of this, a monk cannot take the "superior implement staff" feat. One requirement of the feat (which is NOT listed in the compendium, mind you, but IS in the PHB3 book) is that "it must be of a type you are already able to use".

It's incredibly confusing but the character builder apparently does it correctly.

So you CAN use a Staff of Ruin +1, but you CAN'T use an Accurate Staff of Ruin +1.


Edit: I have re-stated this question and others in another thread here.

 

[DracoSuave]

I had this question myself. Here is what I have found:

A monk CAN use a staff as an implement, but only because a staff is a quarterstaff, and a monk can use a quarterstaff as an implement.

A monk DOES NOT have "staff implement" as a type of implement they can use listed in their class. Because of this, a monk cannot take the "superior implement staff" feat. One requirement of the feat (which is NOT listed in the compendium, mind you, but IS in the PHB3 book) is that "it must be of a type you are already able to use".

It's incredibly confusing but the character builder apparently does it correctly.

So you CAN use a Staff of Ruin +1, but you CAN'T use an Accurate Staff of Ruin +1.


Edit: I have re-stated this question and others in another thread here.

Interesting. I'd actually allow the use of it, but I'd put it forth to some higher rules gurus.

Character Builder also thinks that off-hand weapons do the same damage as regular weapons for Two-Weapon Fighting. It's not a rules reference.

 

[evilbob]

It's not a rules reference.

Yes, I know.

 

[DracoSuave]

Yes, I know.

Meaning, I'm reserving judgement until I see a FAQ on it. I can see it going in either direction.