D&D 5E Monks Suck

[jasper]

1. A bear that tells you that only you can prevent forest firest.
2. A decent pick-up truck for off-roading.
3. The third rhyming word for "Stranger Danger."
4. Something something two scimitars something something shoot stuff with a bow.

2 is a lie. And be aware of Smoky if you trying to find a place to off road.

 

[billd91]

Rogues can disengage all day with their Cunning Action at level 2. Patient Defence is limited by your low Ki, and it lowers your damage meaning the creatures around you stick around longer. It's kind of a lousy deal IMO.

Disengaging and moving away is kind of the opposite of "in the thick of it", though. There are valid reasons for sticking in place. Patient Defense helps a monk do that.
That doesn't mean that they couldn't use an AC boost or d10 hit points - but the monk's style of fighting certainly can and probably should contrast with the rogue's style. And the difference between patient defense and disengaging as a bonus action reflects that.

 

[Snarf Zagyg]

2 is a lie. And be aware of Smoky if you trying to find a place to off road.

I said decent; we aren't talking spec'd out Bronco here.

You can get a decent factory off-road, or better yet, get yer third party parts. Is it a Tacoma, Raptor, or Gladiator? Nope.

....but Tacoma, Raptor, and Gladiator also aren't base D&D classes.

 

[Undrave]

Disengaging and moving away is kind of the opposite of "in the thick of it", though. There are valid reasons for sticking in place. Patient Defense helps a monk do that.
That doesn't mean that they couldn't use an AC boost or d10 hit points - but the monk's style of fighting certainly can and probably should contrast with the rogue's style. And the difference between patient defense and disengaging as a bonus action reflects that.

Exactly, the Rogue doesn't want to be in the thick of it, so why should the Monk who has the same AC and HP?! If nothing else, Patient Defence shouldn't cost Ki at all and just be like the Rogue's Cunning Action.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Base Monk damage is 1d8+1d4+6. Base TWF Rogue damage is 2d6+3 with two chances to land 1d6. At 60% accuracy this is 8.4 vs 11.74 dpr.

You might want to check your math; I think you've given two opportunities for the sneak attack to trigger and allowed it to trigger twice. It's also a conditional thing that you should normally be able to trigger rather than something you can just do for free.

The base monk damage at 60% accuracy averages at (4.5 + 2.5 + 6) *0.6 = 7.8 DPR. The Base TWF rogue damage at 60% averages at (7 + 3) * 0.6 + 3.5 *.84 = 6+ 2.82 = 8.82 DPR under the specific condition that the rogue has an ally to trigger the sneak attack present - which isn't a 100% situation, especially if you want to skirmish round the flanks rather than stand shoulder to shoulder with the fighter.

I strongly favour the monk here over the class that needs support if there's anything squishy you want to mug.

Edit: And a TWF Monk can't both TWF and disengage after a hit. If you're only using one attack then not only does your base damage go down but so does your sneak attack chance. This of course is where the Monk's ability to use Ki points for similar effects becomes really useful.

 

[MwaO]

I mean, if you go by DMG guidelines, you get to refresh your ki points after every 2-3 combats. And a Monk can very easily do this at 6th:
I move up to target A and swing at it. If I hit, I attempt to stun. If I stun, I move to target B. If target is not stunned, either because I missed or it made its save, I swing again at it.
After 2 swings, I spend a bonus action and ki point to flurry of blows. Repeat above. Except I deliberately move to an angle where when I hit targets, they will be auto-shoved 15 feet towards other stunned targets if stunned due to auto-failing Dex/Str saves. If not stunned, they can maybe fall prone so I get advantage on my next swing.

On the 1st round of combat, what can easily end up happening is an entire encounter is stunned and in burst formation. That combat very well might be over. Yes, it eats up 5 ki points if everything goes right with 4 opponents. But that's a renewable resource in ki points.

If you live in a world where DMs don't follow DMG guidelines or they make huge maps with lots of ranged attackers to deal with the annoyances of spellcasters with large bursts, yes, the Monk is going to have some problems. But no more really than what any mostly melee attacker will have to deal with anyway.

 

[Mistwell]

The issues with the monk is that it's purposeless. It's a collection of feature to represent an idea that has no grounding in the world.

Surprisingly he goes into this issue near the beginning. They were created by Brian Blum based on the Remo Williams novels (The Destroyer novels). Kung Fu moves, run across water, incapacitate people by poking them, etc..

I always thought it was from the Shao Lin Monks. Apparently...no. It's Remo Williams. Which isn't a particularly strong prototype.

 

[Mistwell]

He also thinks it's humorous to demean people who don't have system mastery, which is crass.

I strongly disagree. He does not demean people who do not have system mastery. He just likes system mastery himself and provides information for those who do. I have never once heard him demean anyone, much less those not into what he's into. He's a very nice guy. Heck he ends every video saying D&D is for everyone and it's to have fun.

He does have a sense of humor though. Are you sure you were not mistaking that?

 

[Dausuul]

I mean, if you go by DMG guidelines, you get to refresh your ki points after every 2-3 combats.

This is really a ki point. * uses Patient Defense to duck flying garbage * The monk, as a short-rest class, suffers the same way warlocks (and, to a lesser extent, fighters) do when the DM favors a brief adventuring day. If you never get a chance to take a short rest that isn't also a long rest, then you end up refreshing your resources on the same schedule as a long-rest class, but only getting one-third the power when you do.

I talked my group into adopting a house rule where a short rest is 5 minutes but you're only allowed two short rests per day. It is amazing how much of a difference it makes for those classes.

 

[Ruin Explorer]

And if we are to stick with a "mundane" fighter then I want them to be as lethal with weapons as the most lethal swordsman who ever lived. We're talking one hit kills on anything here.

What's weird is in literary fantasy, fighters this good are more common than wizards half as powerful as a level 20 D&D wizard, but in D&D it's seen as some sort of psychotic imposition to even suggest that maybe fighters should be able to one-shot stuff at the same level a wizard can literally blow up an entire army.