Monks & Weapons & Powers, oh my

[Dannyalcatraz]

Forgive me if this has been addressed before, but I don't hang out in the 4Ed forum all that much.

It seems to me as if the Monk has a damage issue.

None of the powers I've looked at had "X[W] + Bonus" type notation, instead giving a "N + Bonus" or "dN + Bonus" type language.

Doesn't this mean that the monk's powers essentially ignore whatever weapon he's using? If that's the case, what of the Monk's unarmed strike? And expanding further, what about a Hybrid Monk who has an expanded weapons list?

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Monk has implement powers, they don't scale with weapons.

The weapon is useful for MBAs only, and/or using feats.

The extra damage for the monk comes in the form of their Flurry of Blows. And that near-mandatory Iron Armbands of Power.

Brad

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

Monk has implement powers, they don't scale with weapons.

Okaaaaaaaay...I'm still not getting it. I'm not talking about scaling, I'm talking about there not being any W at all.

IOW, scaling aside, a regular melee PC's power would say W+ bonus, meaning that the attack would be doing the weapon damage plus the stat bonus. If PC#1's weapon does 1d6, it would be 1d6 + bonus damage.

Certain monk powers just give a N + Bonus. Say that N=3, and the power does 3 + bonus. Now, on average, that's slightly worse than the first PC's power. Ones that have a random die roll have that factored in.

Weapon doesn't matter.

 

[Saagael]

It's the same way a swordmage uses a longsword, but doesn't deal weapon damage for attacks. Or a wizard using a staff, or a sorcerer using a dagger. They're implements attacks. Weapon attacks use the [W] notation, where as implement attack damage dice are defined per power. Some powers deal static damage, and no dice (a Wizard's at-will Cloud of Daggers is like this).

When a weapon is used as an implement (like with monks), all weapon properties like high crit and proficiency bonus are ignored. Magic properties and powers are kept though.

 

[RangerWickett]

Jackie Chan is a monk. He can kick your butt just as easily with a ladder or a paint bucket as he can with a spear or sword.

The rules don't make logical sense (realistically, a sword is just more dangerous than a club), but they model the cinematic reality of kung-fu movies decently well.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

That's great for when you have a Monk weapon that actually has powers, etc., but if its just a normal weapon, then blech.

And that also means there's a dearth of powers that work with the class' iconic ability, the unarmed strike.

 

[DracoSuave]

Weapon doesn't matter.

You're right, weapon does not matter.

However, magical weapon properties, powers, critical hit damage bonuses, etc. DO matter when you're not using a Ki Focus.

Think of it like this... weapons don't hold you back either.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

But this means the monk's unarmed strike has a semi-pointless damage rating...and with so many Monk powers being implement dependent, it would seem that the unarmed strike is, in a word, neutered.

 

[mneme]

So...how is this a damage issue? Yes, the monk can't boost her damage via Superior Weapons -- but she can boost it via Superior Implements (by my reading, anyway) and similar, so hey.

Basically, the monk has two ways of making unarmed attacks:

1. Monk implement powers. These work equally well with unarmed attacks, the monk unarmed strike, and weapons, giving the monk a feel of "it doesn't matter what I'm armed with; I'll kick your ass into next week regardless. The monk's the guy who will hit your buddy with a spear, then plant it on the ground and pole vault feet-first into your face--then pull it out of the ground and spin it in a spiral, hitting everyone in the room. So having the monk use weapons (or her unarmed strike) but not necessarily bother to hit people with them is exactly right.

2. Multiclass weapon powers, OAs, and other basic attacks. Here is where the monk uses her unarmed strike (or, you know, actually hits someone with whatever weapon she's carying using a Weapon attack), and it's where the monks Unarmed Strike (which is, after all, a Superior-level "weapon") comes into its own, and it does a good job of emphasizing that even when a monk uses a basic attack or multiclass power, they can -still- prove an effective unarmed or improvised/spontaneous weapon combatant. Sure, it doesn't happen that often (though with Pointed Step Style, a monk can throw a Javelin at a medium-length foe and then Flurry to hit the foe two squares away), but it's an important aspect to helping the monk feel right and multiclass correctly.

Also, Danny, keep in mind that it's not just the Unarmed Strike's damage rating that's irrelevant for the monk's powers--it's everything about it. The monk gains no advantage for using Unarmed Strike as an implement over just using Ki Focus (except for monks who have a weapon focus(unarmed strike), anyway), and no part of the unarmed strike -- not the damage bonus, not the proficiency, nothing -- is relevant to an Implement power.

 

[Dannyalcatraz]

So...how is this a damage issue?

1) A monk using a non-implement level weapon with his powers gains no benefit from his weapon.

2) The fact that his unarmed attacks are not implements means that the iconic class ability is worthless with a number of class powers...which then begs the question what's the point of them doing more damage with their unarmed strikes than other, non-Monk PCs?

3) As a whole, this seems counter to the 4Ed design goal of making items & gear less important. In previous editions, it was nearly pointless for Monks to use their weapons. Now, there are many reasons for them to seek out implements in preference to their unarmed strikes.