Monster advancement

Li Shenron

Legend
Yesterday I was taking a look at the 3.5 SRD part about advancing monsters, a very nice improvement indeed in my opinion. But I am not very sure if I understand correctly how it works. Please correct me!

- a creature has a number of base hit dice which could be considered its "levels in his race class", where the class is actually one Type of creature (such as Animal, Dragon, Undead...)

- feats (except eventually creature-specific bonus feats) and ability score increases are given to a creature according to HD in the same way they are given to PCs according to their CHARACTER LEVEL; for example, a creature with 4HD has 2 base feats and +1 in one ability (all taken into account in the creature's entry in MM), just as a PC with charater level 4; this is therefore independent to the creature's type, as it is independent to the PC's class

- BAB, ST and skills (also taken into account in the MM entry) are given to a creature according to HD but they depend on the Type, which works therefore like a PC's class

- ADVANCEMENT by HD: grants more feats, ability increase, BAB, ST and skills according to the Type (with feats and ability increase being independent to the type); it may cause a SIZE increase only if the MM entry specifies this possibilty; it is normally limited to a max HD in the MM entry (DM may overrule this)

- ADVANCEMENT by class: this is typically used for monsters as PC or anyway intelligent monsters, which gain class levels by experience; effectively it works like multiclassing between the "racial class" and the PC class, with the racial class never giving Xp penalties for multiclassing

Now it comes my doubts: it seems that there are 3 factors in the advancement by class: the levels in the racial class (= creature's number of HD before class levels), the levels in the PC class, the level adjustment (if any).

What I seem to understand is that only the racial levels + class levels (which in total are always equal to the HD = racial HD + class HD) count to grant feats and ability score increases. That number of total HD is the same thing to PC's character level (sum of all class levels).

Instead, the Xp needed to achieve further levels in PC classes take into account also the "level adjustment". For ex. if a creature has racial HD = 2 and levev adj = 1, it is considered to be the same as a level 2 character (for feats and ability increases), but instead of having a starting 1000Xp it has a starting 3000Xp. This is of course a penalty, since taking its first level in a PC class costs 3000Xp instead of 2000Xp.

Another thing I am confused is the difference between creatures with 1 racial HD and creatures with at least 2 racial HD. If a creature had 1 HD only, it basically always have a class (PC or NPC) and is treated as having 0 levels in the racial class; otherwise, it can have HD, BAB, ST, skills etc. as its Type defines for 1HD. If I later add a class level to such a creature, do I have to "drop" the BAB, ST, etc. of its racial level? This is done with no problems if I am creating the creature from the start (it is what happens to every PC, they start with 1 class level, and don't use Humanoid level 1 at all), but what should be done with a creature with 1 racial HD which later takes a class level?
 

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- Feats, ability increases: Depends solely on your number of HD (and class levels add HD). (you were right here)

- Skill points: Are awarded per HD (and class levels add HD). For monster HD, this goes by type (Outsider gets 8+ etc), for class levels, this goes by class (bard 6+ etc). (you were right here)

Starting Money/Equipment: Depends on either CR (for NPCs/Monsters) or ECL (for PC's).

XP to advance: depends on ECL (for PC's - with NPC's you usually don't bother with XP's, you just advance them as you see fit).

ECL: Your Racial HD + your class levels + the level adjustment

CR: Take the given CR, and add +1 for every level in an associated class level, and +1/2 for every level in an non-associated class level. Associated means that the class adds to the strenghts of that monster (an ogre with barbarian levels, for example), nonassociated doesn't (an ogre with wizard levels, for examle). Further info see Chapter 4, MM3.5.

1HD creatures: Really don't have a racial HD - the standard issues from MM are Warrior 1. If you start them with warrior, use them, and later advance them, you probably should add further levels of warrior. If you want a goblin rogue, let him be rogue right from the start (and give him the elite array instead of the standard array, which is for those with only NPC class levels).

Usually, if you use one of the 1HD creatures right from the book, you won't advance them later on, for they will usually be fodder for the PC's to slaughter.
 

KaeYoss said:
1HD creatures: Really don't have a racial HD - the standard issues from MM are Warrior 1. If you start them with warrior, use them, and later advance them, you probably should add further levels of warrior. If you want a goblin rogue, let him be rogue right from the start (and give him the elite array instead of the standard array, which is for those with only NPC class levels).

Usually, if you use one of the 1HD creatures right from the book, you won't advance them later on, for they will usually be fodder for the PC's to slaughter.

I was giving a quick browse at the SRD, don't have time to dig it now, and in fact I didn't find any creature with 1HD which advances by class and which spots a stat block with its racial HD and stuff. This was probably completely removed by 3.5 (in 3.0 for ex. we had Elf with non-class stats). The only creatures I could find now with 1HD but racial stats are ones which advance by HD.

I think in 3.0 there was something in the MM about creature with 2+ HD, in the case of which if you gave them class levels you had to "take away" one racial HD from them, but I think this is gone in 3.5. Basically, you either have a creature with racial HD and add class levels ON TOP, or you have a creature with only class levels (such as the PHB races). Well, this just leaves a "hole"... there are no creatures with 1 racial HD and class levels afterwards, but do we need them?
 

Yes, they actually write "Kobold, 1st-level Warrior" now, and give them an array of ability scores, not just all 10's or 11's.
 

Li Shenron said:
This was probably completely removed by 3.5 (in 3.0 for ex. we had Elf with non-class stats). The only creatures I could find now with 1HD but racial stats are ones which advance by HD.

You probably mean "Kobold".

Li Shenron said:
I think in 3.0 there was something in the MM about creature with 2+ HD, in the case of which if you gave them class levels you had to "take away" one racial HD from them, but I think this is gone in 3.5.

No, there was no such rule in the 3.0 core rules. Sounds like the issue is really unchanged except for the Kobold example.
 
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For ability boosts, it's one per 4 HD but this only applies to advanced creatures.

As an example, let's use a 5 HD creature. It doesn't gain an ability point for having 4+ HD. If you advance it to 7 HD, it doesn't gain an ability point. If you advance it to 8 HD, it gains an ability point.

Note that advanced creatures tend to have terrible AC scores. If the CR score more than doubles (not CR +2) then the formula starts to break down. Generally speaking, advancing a creature that much results in a monster that is not well-rounded.
 

(Psi)SeveredHead said:
For ability boosts, it's one per 4 HD but this only applies to advanced creatures.

As an example, let's use a 5 HD creature. It doesn't gain an ability point for having 4+ HD. If you advance it to 7 HD, it doesn't gain an ability point. If you advance it to 8 HD, it gains an ability point.

You can always say that it DID get a +1 at the fourth HD, and that +1 is included in its stats.
 

Monsters do not get ability score increases for monster HD. They only get ability score increases when they take class levels. When a monster takes class levels, you determine whether or not it gets an ability increase based on its character level, AKA its monster HD + its class levels. So a 3 HD monster that takes a level in fighter would get an ability increase for being 4th level, while it wouldn't if it advanced its monster HD. A 5 HD monster that took levels in fighter would get an ability increase when it hit 3rd level, or the 8th character level.

I don't think the monsters in the MM are given ability scores as though they got an increase every 4th HD, since there are no rules in the MM for doing that when they advance in monster HD. Also all monster characters get an even set of ability adjustments for their monster HD. SS species doesn't say things like "+8 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha and +1 for 4th HD ability increase" when describing a monster character's ability adjustments.
 

Urbannen said:
Monsters do not get ability score increases for monster HD. They only get ability score increases when they take class levels. When a monster takes class levels, you determine whether or not it gets an ability increase based on its character level, AKA its monster HD + its class levels. So a 3 HD monster that takes a level in fighter would get an ability increase for being 4th level, while it wouldn't if it advanced its monster HD. A 5 HD monster that took levels in fighter would get an ability increase when it hit 3rd level, or the 8th character level.

I don't think the monsters in the MM are given ability scores as though they got an increase every 4th HD, since there are no rules in the MM for doing that when they advance in monster HD. Also all monster characters get an even set of ability adjustments for their monster HD. SS species doesn't say things like "+8 Str, +2 Con, -2 Int, -4 Cha and +1 for 4th HD ability increase" when describing a monster character's ability adjustments.


From SRD:
Ability Score Improvement: Treat monster Hit Dice the same as character level for determining ability score increases. This only applies to Hit Dice increases, monsters do not gain ability score increases for levels they “already reached” with their racial Hit Dice, since these adjustments are included in their basic ability scores.
 


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