Monster Catalogue vs. Monster Creation Rules (vs. Why Not Both?)

[Joshua Randall]

Forked from the thread What TTRPG Is Perfect and Complete In One Volume?

I wrote:

An interesting question: if a game is of the sort that does not have a giant roster of monsters (so, not D&D nor similar) -- but rather, builds the monsters on general principles --

How "complete" do you think the "single book" needs to be vis a vis its monster catalogue?

For example:

• Gumshoe does have a small rosters of monsters / cultists / thugs / etc., but far from a giant "monster manual". It has a kinda sorta framework for building monsters: assign General attribute points, pick a Hit Threshold, model damage.
• Shadow of the Demon Lord, the product line, will happily sell you numerous supplements with monsters in them. However, the core book contains a small roster of monsters, along with a framework for building your own. (And a lot of them are just going to be: take a base creature, advance it by character levels, choose spells.)
• Apocalypse World, the original book (not all the offshoots), has a few examples of "monsters", and some general advice on how to set up opposition for the PCs. Of course, this game is far less concerned with exact stats that something like D&D or SOTDL or even Gumshoe....

@Thomas Shey responded:

I'm not sure in all cases the "general principals" are clear enough that you don't need significant samples to work with to have a clear idea, however, and depending on the detail level, simply assembling them may be a sufficient workload I'd be willing to call a short enough list "incomplete".

and @Reynard added:

the test for me would be "is it simple and intuitive based on the information presented?"

So, this thread's discussion topic: what's your preference?

• Monster Catalogue -- like the D&D monster manual, or any other game with a (relatively) large list of monster statblocks (and/or ecology and/or lairs and/or etc.)
• Monster Creation Rules -- a coherent framework that allows the GM to create his own monsters. Presumably some examples are given, but nothing as extensive as a true Monster Catalogue
• Why Not Both? -- a catalogue of monsters and creation rules for you to make more

With a side helping of addressing the point about "how much workload is this going to be for the game we are playing?"
(For example, the workload to create a 3e D&D monster is much higher than the workload to create a Fate Accelerated monster.)

 

[Wolfpack48]

I like the idea of a solid baseline set of monsters and additionally a system for creating your own.

 

[Reynard]

Shadowdark has a solid bestiary plus rules on modifying and creating monsters sufficient to call that a "complete" game from this perspective. I mean, I think it is one of the most complete "adventure fantasy" games in recent memory, tied with Dragonbane Core Rules.

 

[Faolyn]

I vote Why Not Both? so I can have some good examples of created monsters.

If I had to choose between the other two I'd pick the catalog, because I'm fairly decent and retroengineering the rules that go into making monsters if I have enough examples of them.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I'd very much prefer "Why Not Both?" but then, I spent a lot of my gaming career running the Hero System. IF not that, then enough samples to give a model to create new opponents with (you also have games that sort of have a leg halfway into "Monster Creation"; 13th Age has a basic set of specs monsters of a given level and size should have, but the devil is in the details of things like attack riders and special abilities).

 

[overgeeked]

I'm 100% in the Why Not Both? category. They each serve different functions, for different preferences, at different times. Am I new to the system and want something quick and easy to use, catalog. Am I more experienced with the system and want something custom, creation.

Something like The Monster Overhaul combined with Forge of Foes would be a perfect world combo for me. Say the front 2/3 of the book as your standard catalog with more generally useful info and tables like Overhaul and the back 1/3 of the book as your Forge of Foes monster creation and numbers crunching.

 

[mamba]

Definitely both, a solid foundation of 100-200 monsters (fantasy on the higher end) plus solid creation rules

In general to me, the more monsters the better, but definitely do not skimp on creation rules either. Templates are also nice to easily increase the number of available monsters

 

[Thomas Shey]

Definitely both, a solid foundation of 100-200 monsters (fantasy on the higher end) plus solid creation rules

In general to me, the more monsters the better, but definitely do not skimp on creation rules either. Templates are also nice to easily increase the number of available monsters

And of course it really helps if there's some common metric to opponent design. Like I said, 13th Age swings both ways (damage, defenses, attack bonus and hit points have a common model; when and how attacks get riders and what kind of special abilities they have and how it works is entirely ad-hoc).

 

[Joshua Randall]

Not surprisingly we all want “Why Not Both?” When we can get it. But let’s refocus on games that, for whatever reason, do not provide a Monster Catalogue.

How robust and well explained should the Monster Creation Rules be? Of course, “it depends”, but….

As several people pointed out, even games that give you instructions for how to create monsters seldom explain beyond the numerical mechanics. What is the secret sauce that determines whether a monster’s special attack should do less than normal damage but carry a rider of some sort? (Typically a debuff.) Is changing the damage type from “untyped” or “physical” damage to something like “fire” or “electricity” damage worth a reduction in the total damage output? How much can you or should you tweak a monster’s defenses within a range before it becomes a “harder” or “higher level” monster? How should you model something other than “a single corporeal creature that fights with natural or manufactured weapons”, such as a mob or swarm or ghost or mob of ghosts. And so on, and so on, and so on.

This is where the Monster Catalogue becomes helpful, because you can see what the game’s designers actually did. (Although my fear and gut feeling is that many published monsters don’t follow their game’s Monster Creation Rules, so the examples aren’t that helpful.)

 

[Professor Murder]

Expanding out a bit, what matters more is clear encounter design guidelines with examples. Give a sense of scale. How hard will a given challenge be for a give caliber of PCs?