D&D 5E Monster Challenge Ratings - a few questions

[Mercurius]

A few questions from perusing the MM. The text says "An appropriately equipped and well-rested party of four adventurers should be able to defeat a monster that has a challenge rating equal to its level without suffering any deaths" (page 9).

1) What about a lone adventurer? What is the level-to-CR conversion for being similarly "challenging-but-likely-not-deadly"? Can we say something CR +2 = level?" Roughly speaking? Or maybe CR +1 per 5 levels? So that a 20th level character would be roughly equivalent to a CR 16 monster?

2) It doesn't seem the text says anything about CRs higher than the party level, except that they are "specifically designed to test player skill." Any thoughts about where the tipping point is in terms of likely death? If an equal CR is unlikely, say <33% chance of character death, what would be >67% chance of character death? What would be an even chance of a TPK? I'm guessing the DMG will have better guidelines.

3) There are a bunch of monsters up to CR 24, then the Tarrasque at 30. Any sense of what might be in the 25-29 range? Are we talking about, perhaps, unique dragons and perhaps liches with some kind of epic features? Elder Evil-type creatures? While we're at it, where would immortal heroes and demigods fit in? Demon lords and arch-devils? Do they fit in the 25-29 range or will they be 31+?

4) Speaking of the Tarrasque, is it really that much tougher than an ancient red or gold dragon? A lot more HP, I now, but is it really 6 CRs higher?

 

[SilverfireSage]

1) What about a lone adventurer? What is the level-to-CR conversion for being similarly "challenging-but-likely-not-deadly"? Can we say something CR +2 = level?" Roughly speaking? Or maybe CR +1 per 5 levels? So that a 20th level character would be roughly equivalent to a CR 16 monster?

Looks to be somewhere around there. The archmage in the back is an 18th level spell caster and is only a challenge rating 12. I don't think they really thought at all about how characters would relate to challenge rating because characters have far more abilities than any monster has. How do you account for a 20th level fighter having two action surges and the potential to hit 16 times in two rounds? That's far higher damage output than any monster in the game. However, the average character is only going to have about 200hp at 20th level as well, far less than a 20CR monster. I said this before in another thread but it applies here too: Characters are meant to fight monsters, not each other.

2) It doesn't seem the text says anything about CRs higher than the party level, except that they are "specifically designed to test player skill." Any thoughts about where the tipping point is in terms of likely death? If an equal CR is unlikely, say <33% chance of character death, what would be >67% chance of character death? What would be an even chance of a TPK? I'm guessing the DMG will have better guidelines.

This edition certainly seems to be far more relaxed when it comes to CRs. After all, in other editions in order to get even a challenge you'd have to use something the PCs level or higher or they'd slaughter it immediately. There's a far higher range of fightable monsters for any given level in 5E, which is great in my opinion. But in all honesty, I think it all depends on how prepared the characters are for the task at hand. If they attack a monster head on with a CR higher than they are, they'll likely have some character deaths and a TPK. But playing smart, like in any other edition, can lower that significantly. So the CRs in the book seemed to have been calculated with a head on approach, i.e., do not attack the Tarrasque head on or you will all die.

3) There are a bunch of monsters up to CR 24, then the Tarrasque at 30. Any sense of what might be in the 25-29 range? Are we talking about, perhaps, unique dragons and perhaps liches with some kind of epic features? Elder Evil-type creatures? While we're at it, where would immortal heroes and demigods fit in? Demon lords and arch-devils? Do they fit in the 25-29 range or will they be 31+?

I'm going to guess that range will be deserved for lower arch devils, potentially famous figures like Szass Tam, and the weaker demon lords such as Grazzt. The Tarrasque has typically been one of the higher powered creatures in the game, something even a god would fear fighting, and I hope that stays the case.

4) Speaking of the Tarrasque, is it really that much tougher than an ancient red or gold dragon? A lot more HP, I now, but is it really 6 CRs higher?

Sure seems like it. 3 higher AC, 100+ more hp, makes 2 extra attacks at 10-15 more damage per attack, is immune to all non-magical weapon damage, has more condition immunities, and has scarier legendary actions. The only things the Gold Dragon really has over it are better saves, lair actions, and the breath weapon. Much more versatile, but no match for the tarrasque in brute power.

 

[Quickleaf]

1) What about a lone adventurer? What is the level-to-CR conversion for being similarly "challenging-but-likely-not-deadly"? Can we say something CR +2 = level?" Roughly speaking? Or maybe CR +1 per 5 levels? So that a 20th level character would be roughly equivalent to a CR 16 monster?

Judging from [MENTION=84774]surfarcher[/MENTION]'s analysis and the Basic DM rules (my MM hasn't arrived yet), the CR of NPCs depends on whether they're physical combatants or combat spellcasters. My rough guideline has been:

Warrior CR = 1/3 to 1/2 level

Spellcaster CR = level - 3

EDIT: Whoops, I mistyped. Spellcaster is not level / 2, it is roughly level -3!

 

[Evenglare]

I really can't wait till the DMG so it will sort out all of this CR guessing nonsense. I really just wish they would give us the damn rules now. I mean you know they have them ready, they created the whole monster manual. Why keep it under wraps? Also I see a lot of people saying that the CR system is relaxed here in 5th and it doesn't mean much. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but why even have the system in place if it serves no meaningful purpose anymore?

 

[Gobelure]

It is rather unfortunate that with a so nice overall design the encounter system looks so intricated in 5E …
I hope that they will come with good tips in the DMG on how to avoid intensive math while still designing interesting encounters.

1) What about a lone adventurer? What is the level-to-CR conversion for being similarly "challenging-but-likely-not-deadly"? Can we say something CR +2 = level?" Roughly speaking? Or maybe CR +1 per 5 levels? So that a 20th level character would be roughly equivalent to a CR 16 monster?

A good rule of thumb is to say that monster CR corresponds to a mortal encounter for 3 players of that CR level. If you have only 1 player, my rule of thumb is to take a CR half of the PC level for a mortal encounter.
Lower CR just means easier encounter.

3) There are a bunch of monsters up to CR 24, then the Tarrasque at 30. Any sense of what might be in the 25-29 range? Are we talking about, perhaps, unique dragons and perhaps liches with some kind of epic features? Elder Evil-type creatures? While we're at it, where would immortal heroes and demigods fit in? Demon lords and arch-devils? Do they fit in the 25-29 range or will they be 31+?

I don't know yet about the 25-29 range. However, looking at the XP tables, it looks like the difficulty levels seriously ramps up past CR 20. So I imagine 25-29 are suited for "above average end-of-campaign bosses", whatever fits this definition : parties of 6 or more players, specific items required to defeat the monster for 4-PC parties, and so on. anyway, this range is not very useful to design normal adventures.

 

[Astrosicebear]

Asmor made a fantastic encounter generator. Allows you to not only search through CR lists, but it also visually tells you whether your intended encounter is Hard, Deadly, ludicrous, etc. definitely check it out.

http://asmor.com/5e/monsters/#/main


So it seems from his calculations, 1 level 4 PC would have a HARD encounter with a CR1, where as a CR2 is just ludicrous and nigh un-winnable.

 

[Mercurius]

I really can't wait till the DMG so it will sort out all of this CR guessing nonsense. I really just wish they would give us the damn rules now. I mean you know they have them ready, they created the whole monster manual. Why keep it under wraps? Also I see a lot of people saying that the CR system is relaxed here in 5th and it doesn't mean much. I'm not saying that's right or wrong, but why even have the system in place if it serves no meaningful purpose anymore?

Well they've given us enough to play, no? We're just left having to guesstimate a bit in some cases.

Anyhow, I also can't wait until the DMG comes out, but it is more because the first two books have been so great that I'm excited to see what the DMG holds!

 

[Mercurius]

Thanks all, good thoughts - XP rewarded all around. Y'all can level up now .