"Monster Classes"

[Zappo]

Maybe the adventuring ogre was only a month away from growing to full size? Reverse causality is still causality.

So, this ogre stays 2 meters tall for, say, ten years, and then grows to 4 meters in a month, and then stays so until death? And the same applies to all monsters?

 

[s/LaSH]

Personally, I'm inclined to think that monsters in the MM are at their basic level, just out of adolescence. A human can run, swim, talk etc; a mind flayer can eat brains, walk the planes, and blow your cerebellum out your nose with a glance. It's fundamental to their racial superiority complex.

That said, I had an interesting idea; who says each class has to be a species? It could be a broader category with skill trees like d20 Modern. So a mind flayer would be an Aberration class, level 8, with options chosen from the Planewalker and Brain Eater trees... or something, I'm just making this up, you know.

I'm definitely using classes for just about everything in the homebrew I'm working on, with most of the abilities provided by a standard PC race. Heck, I'm even working on a system whereby vehicles can level up. Of course, I'm crazy.

 

[jmucchiello]

So, this ogre stays 2 meters tall for, say, ten years, and then grows to 4 meters in a month, and then stays so until death?

No, he's 2.9 meters and grows to 3 meters in a month a year or two later he's 4 meters. But after 3 meters he gets counted as Large instead of Medium-size. How hard is that to believe?

Edit: I was only working this for monsters specifically listed as "Advancement: By character class".

And the same applies to all monsters?

No, Ogre take up to 4 levels of Ogre class. Harpies up to 7 levels of Harpy class. There is NO way to do this generically with any semblance of balance.

 

[jmucchiello]

Hahhaha....sorry, man! I'll avoid asking any publishers if they want me to write stuff about it... (though the ECL's are kinda-OGC, aren't they? I mean, they're in the DMG...? I could be wrong on that, though...)

But not the SRD. We follow the SRD those who write OGC.

I guess the sense of it could be explained in that a "farming" ogre probably isn't an ogre out of the MM...after all, a farming ogre wouldn't probably get Weapon Focus, nor would they bother wearing hide armor all the time, either. The MM Ogre is one with some adventuring experience!

I would say the MM Ogre is just what it is supposed to be a "Warrior Ogre" Just like the Elf is a "Warrior Elf".

And, of course, some races would have more innate powers than others...not everything scales easily with levels. The Ogre actually has (by my estimation) a whooooole buncha innate powers (large size, natural armor, and ability score bonuses being the big ones, and nearly the only ones)....almost nothing about that, at least, scales with levels.

Here's a rough outline of the Ogre (from memory, I don't have the manuscript here.

Racial Traits
* +2 STR, +4 CON, -4 INT, -4 CHA
* Medium-size. (After 2 levels the ogre can grow to Large with DMs permission, or start a normal class.)
* Darkvision 60 ft
* Automatic Languages: Giant; Bonus Languages: Common
* Class Skills: Climb, Listen, Spot. 2 + Int point per level

lvl | BAB | Fort | Ref | Will | Natural Armor | Special
1 | +1 | +2 | +0 | +0 | +2 |
2 | +2 | +3 | +0 | +0 | +3 | +2 STR, Maturity
3 | +3 | +3 | +1 | +1 | +4 | Large (+4 STR, -2 DEX)
4 | +4 | +4 | +1 | +1 | +5 | +2 STR

Maturity (Ex): After attaining maturity, an ogre may take subsequent levels in other character classes. Ogres must finish their 4 levels by their 10th character level.

Large (Ex): Upon taking this level, the Ogre becomes a Large creature. He gains +4 Str and 10 ft of reach. His Dex lowers by 2.
Now, there are rules for how these classes work that I'm not explaining here. But the most important one is, monsters don't get the 4x multiple to skill points at 1st level. They get them when they take their first level of a non-monster class.

Though I did come up with this back in my 2e days, while trying to make a class out of every monster in the MM....and honestly the biggest selling point for 3e for me was the easy translation from monster to PC, which I always wanted and haven't been able to get, even up to this point.

Well my way still isn't easy, you need one for each monster.

Anyhoo, keep this going...if no problem that's huge is pointed out, I'll see if I can't start posting these to House Rules, maybe get some helpers on this (since it's only mechanics, I feel safer giving it away than I would my Deities-A-Week(ish)). Of course, if Joe is planning on doing all the work for me, I guess I only have to buy his book when it comes out.

Well, it depends on when I finish the rest of the book. This is just a 10-15 page part of a full book on character customization.

 

[Balgus]

Originally posted by Zappo
So, this ogre stays 2 meters tall for, say, ten years, and then grows to 4 meters in a month, and then stays so until death?

That's not too hard to believe. Since it is a humanoid, it should follow some templates- one of which is growth spurt which is hormonally driven.

A human is about 1 ft to 4 ft for 13 years. Then in a matter of two to five years, they double in size, height and gerth. Then, for teh rest of their lives, they remain about the same height- but can grow in width...

I was a skinny, short asian for about 12 years (3'6" 60 pounds) until i was 12. Then I shot up to 5'10 in one and a half years (only 100 pounds). I plateaued out at 6', but put on 80 pounds since...

Now- the hormones are the tricky part, since some hiumans enter their growth spurt at age 9, and some at age 15. There is huge variability- and the only explaination is environment. So an adventuring ogre may get more adrenaline rushes, thus forcing his body to develop faster than the farmer.

And another example would be that of the Silverback Apes. All males are the same until one crowns himself the dominant alpha male. then he grows the silver back.. But once they are dethroned, they lose their silver fur.

 

[d20Dwarf]

If you like monsters with class, be sure to check out Monster's Handbook by Fantasy Flight Games. It's full of new PrCs, feats, templates, and such to toy with your monsters.

Also, if I'm not mistaken, Kevin Wilson is toying with the idea of "racial feats" in Galactic Races for Dragonstar. This allows you to play monsters such as mind flayers and drow as PCs without having an ECL. It's a great system, and should be out in late December.

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, the thing about the growth and such is that no matter which way you explain it, it's still pretty artificial. Characters can wake up one day and be a level higher...while explaining class skills is one thing with that, explaining physical features is quite another...

I probably wouldn't do size by level, for instance...they'd start large. Ditto with the ability score increases...I'd give them one racial modifier at character creation, not have 'em level it up. I'd just level powers that would realistically come with training and honing (so spell-like abilities, bonus racial feats, various special attacks and powers, etc.) would come with a level. Because not all 1st-levels would be equal, ECL's (or something like them) would be implemented.

Of course, since that's not OGC, I can't fault you for not going in that direction. Plus, something that gives them those "natural" qualities with level would definately help people who want to play them in 1st level campaigns...

Anyhoo, this will certainly be an interesting year for monsters.

 

[jmucchiello]

Well, the thing about the growth and such is that no matter which way you explain it, it's still pretty artificial. Characters can wake up one day and be a level higher...while explaining class skills is one thing with that, explaining physical features is quite another...

They are all just game mechanics. You'll note in the description of Maturity, the DM decides when the character can take level 3.

I probably wouldn't do size by level, for instance...they'd start large. Ditto with the ability score increases...I'd give them one racial modifier at character creation, not have 'em level it up.

Then an ogre cannot play at 1st level. My aim was to let them do so. I thought that was your aim. A large first level warrior character with +10 Str, -2 DEX, +4 CON, -4 INT and -2 Cha, plus darkvision and +5 natural armor is not balanced with an Elf of any class.

Because not all 1st-levels would be equal, ECL's (or something like them) would be implemented.

I don't like ECLs for two reasons. They aren't OGC and They make no sense. Put a ECL 16 Nymph in a party of 16th level fighters and wizards and see how long she lives. Rediculous.

Anyhoo, this will certainly be an interesting year for monsters.

Apparently.

Joe

 

[I'm A Banana]

Well, I had similar motivations in "watering down" the powers to reduce the ECL, but I don't nessecarily want to totally eliminate it...some races are just naturally more powerful than others still.

I mean, what you're doing is good and useful and all that, don't get me wrong. My philosophy is slightly different, though. Watering down ECL's to a usable level...not totally eliminating them and balancing any race for use with any party...though, like I said, that's a useful and constructive goal.

Like, the Nymph may be like this:

RACIAL TRAITS: +2 Dex, +6 Int, +6 Wis, +8 Cha

LV1: Alertness, Dodge bonus feats
Lv2: Blinding Beauty
Lv3: Dimension Door, Unearthly Beauty, Ability Focus (Unearthly Beauty).

ECL probably about +5-7...certainly not 16, but not exactly 0, either...being able to kill everything that looks at you by 3 HD is a potent power, since most characters have to wait until 10 HD to do it, and the hefty bonus feats are also useful. Add into that their excellent stat bonuses, and you've got a heroic nymph! She can probably survive pretty well in a party of 6th-8th level characters. Certainly, she'll be frail, but she won't be useless and she will be able to solve many melee problems without breaking a sweat.

If you can balance it so that she doesn't get he power to kill things until the PC's do, and *still* maintains decent HD advancement and such, more power to ya. But when something's CR is twice it's HD, you can tell that it's abilities are probably quite a bit more potent than usual for a 3 HD critter. ...hence, ECL helps calculate that.

 

[Estlor]

If they went this route (which seems logical), it would just be taking ECL and blowing it into little pieces. In essence, we would see just what a monster gets at each "level" of its ECL.

On the plus side, it would allow for players to begin at 1st level as a nonstandard race, lacking much of the strengths of the race and able to choose how quickly they'd prefer that over normal class benefits (kind of like being a bugbear without any bugbearishness). On the negative side, it does introduce a LOT of extra rules and upkeep, as people are going to demand Savage Species info for new monsters as they come out.

This isn't unprecedented, BTW. The OD&D Creature Crucible series involed playing immature monsters at "negative" levels up to and beyond full power.