Monster HP question

[mach1.9pants]

...And Solo monsters, designed to takea party of 5 on on it's own

 

[mach1.9pants]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

It seems 1st level miniions do, but they get more at higher levels. I can't remember the amount but 10hp for a higher level minion I have seen. I am sure someone will give you the current thinking on the minion HP formula

 

[Stalker0]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

The wizard won't because he still has to hit their defenses. The thing about minions is that they're defenses aren't that much lower than a normal guys. So while they will die in one hit, the wizard with his dagger still has to make a strength attack to hit them. But a wizard who throws an area spell will annihilate groups of them...as it should be.

 

[Gargazon]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

Actually, as we only have one actual minion stat block (I wouldn't trust the vampire spawn, he's from a DDM card, and they don't appear to be up to date mechanics-wise) it's a bit too early to say.

 

[Stalker0]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

The wizard won't because he still has to hit their defenses. The thing about minions is that they're defenses aren't that much lower than a normal guys. So while they will die in one hit, the wizard with his dagger still has to make a strength attack to hit them. But a wizard who throws an area spell will annihilate groups of them...as it should be.

 

[DreamChaser]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

If I were to take a wild and baseless guess inferred from the fact that 4 minions = 1 standard creature, I would guess that minions have about 20 to 25% the HP of a standard creature. This means 6 or 7 HP for a 1st level. Since a wizard's magic missile does 2d6+Int mod (average 8 to 10), a 1st level minion is definitely going down with the average single hit.

I doubt that they will have 0 hp as this means dying / effectively dead in 4e and there is no reason because 1/4 works just fine.

With regards to the second part, the wizard can't move through the army of mooks because the whole reason for mooks in the first place is that they will have a high enough to hit to actually threaten the PCs at that level without being a long term obstacle. The wizard goes in, he risks attacks from a bunch of mooks who can actually hit him. They will likely do less damage (again my baseless guess would be 50 to 75% of standard) but enough of them become a real threat.

DC

 

[Korgoth]

If I were to take a wild and baseless guess inferred from the fact that 4 minions = 1 standard creature, I would guess that minions have about 20 to 25% the HP of a standard creature. This means 6 or 7 HP for a 1st level. Since a wizard's magic missile does 2d6+Int mod (average 8 to 10), a 1st level minion is definitely going down with the average single hit.

I doubt that they will have 0 hp as this means dying / effectively dead in 4e and there is no reason because 1/4 works just fine.

With regards to the second part, the wizard can't move through the army of mooks because the whole reason for mooks in the first place is that they will have a high enough to hit to actually threaten the PCs at that level without being a long term obstacle. The wizard goes in, he risks attacks from a bunch of mooks who can actually hit him. They will likely do less damage (again my baseless guess would be 50 to 75% of standard) but enough of them become a real threat.

DC

Well, if that's all the case then it doesn't seem too bad. A 1st level Bandit is then the Bandit leader (or sergeant, or whatever), and regular flunky bandits are minions with 6-7 hp... maybe they can stand up to a dagger, but the barbarian is going to be mowing right through them.

 

[Charwoman Gene]

Well, if that's all the case then it doesn't seem too bad. A 1st level Bandit is then the Bandit leader (or sergeant, or whatever), and regular flunky bandits are minions with 6-7 hp... maybe they can stand up to a dagger, but the barbarian is going to be mowing right through them.

Yeah that's how I'm playing it too.

It let's me throw nice mobs at players without fear.

 

[Kordeth]

If I were to take a wild and baseless guess inferred from the fact that 4 minions = 1 standard creature, I would guess that minions have about 20 to 25% the HP of a standard creature. This means 6 or 7 HP for a 1st level. Since a wizard's magic missile does 2d6+Int mod (average 8 to 10), a 1st level minion is definitely going down with the average single hit.

The fly in this logic ointment is that the kobold minion stat block says under HP: "Minions are killed when hit by an attack that inflicts damage." Granted the vampire spawn has 10 hp listed in its stat block, but as many people have pointed out, the DDM RPG stats appear to be out of date when you compare, for example, the DDM Grell with the MM Grell that we aw from the D&D Experience.

I doubt that they will have 0 hp as this means dying / effectively dead in 4e and there is no reason because 1/4 works just fine.

They don't have 0 hp, they have no hp. It's like the difference between a creature having a 0 Con score and undead having no Con score in 3E. And yes, there is a reason for it, if you assume that minions' purpose in the game is to provide a credible threat that can be thrown at the PCs in fairly large numbers without bogging down gameplay. The fact that the kobold minion inflicts a static amount of damage rather than rolling a die bears this out, and if minions die with one hit, that means they require basically no bookkeeping.

If you're trying to design a creature that goes down in one hit and requires minimal bookkeeping, why give it hit points that might be low enough that a PC can one-shot it, but then again might have to be tracked if that dreaded low damage roll comes up, when you can just say "if you hit a minion and deal damage, it dies?"

With regards to the second part, the wizard can't move through the army of mooks because the whole reason for mooks in the first place is that they will have a high enough to hit to actually threaten the PCs at that level without being a long term obstacle. The wizard goes in, he risks attacks from a bunch of mooks who can actually hit him. They will likely do less damage (again my baseless guess would be 50 to 75% of standard) but enough of them become a real threat.

DC

Yep. That's the thing I love about minions--they make the "horde fight" a viable tactic all the way up to 30th level. It's really hard in 3E to build an encounter for high-level PCs where the PCs a) can mow down lots of mooks, and b) aren't so ridiculously hard to hit that the fight has no element of risk at all.

 

[Alkiera]

There are also 'Solo(x5 hp)' NPCs. hp is not the only difference; defenses are also adjusted, and frequently Elite and Solo versions of a regular NPC have additional powers or abilities.