Monster HP question

[DreamChaser]

They don't have 0 hp, they have no hp. It's like the difference between a creature having a 0 Con score and undead having no Con score in 3E. And yes, there is a reason for it, if you assume that minions' purpose in the game is to provide a credible threat that can be thrown at the PCs in fairly large numbers without bogging down gameplay. The fact that the kobold minion inflicts a static amount of damage rather than rolling a die bears this out, and if minions die with one hit, that means they require basically no bookkeeping.

From what we've been told so far, the concept of nonabilities has gone the way of the dodo (undead have Con scores in 4e) so this comparison isn't necessarily appropriate.

I strongly suspect that the monster stats from D&D Experience were simplified to streamline quick play.

If a kobold minion has 2 HP (as an example) this pretty much does the same thing as 0 hp without creating a concept of "no HP" to gum up the works. And since I don't believe that any character from D&D xp was generally capable of doing only 1 point of damage (maybe wizard with dagger...not sure), saying "if you it takes any damage" becomes a truism for that controlled situation.

DC

 

[Kordeth]

From what we've been told so far, the concept of nonabilities has gone the way of the dodo (undead have Con scores in 4e) so this comparison isn't necessarily appropriate.

Doesn't matter if there are nonabilities or not, it's just an analogy to clarify that "dies if it takes damage" isn't the same thing as 0 hp.

I strongly suspect that the monster stats from D&D Experience were simplified to streamline quick play.

How is it simpler to write out the phrase "Minions are killed if they are hit with an attack that inflicts damage" than it is to write "HP: 2?" Everybody playing D&D understands the concept of "inflict damage, when a monster reaches 0 hp, it's dead/disabled." Introducing a new concept of a minion that dies when it takes any damage is a fair bit less simple.

If a kobold minion has 2 HP (as an example) this pretty much does the same thing as 0 hp without creating a concept of "no HP" to gum up the works. And since I don't believe that any character from D&D xp was generally capable of doing only 1 point of damage (maybe wizard with dagger...not sure), saying "if you it takes any damage" becomes a truism for that controlled situation.

DC

But once again, that makes it more complicated if minions have hp like a normal creature, just a lot less of them. If anything, it would make more sense the other way (i.e. in the MM it explains how minions die if they take any damage and the DDXP stat cards translated that as "HP: 1") And yes, at 1st level "2 hp" might work, but your 25% hp theory breaks down at higher levels. A 9th-level minion with 25% hp, taking from the succubus, would have 22 hp. Given that the at-will powers we've seen don't scale up until you hit 21st level, I really doubt that 9th-level PCs can routinely dish out 22 points of damage. Even 10% hp for the level breaks down, just at a higher level than 25%.

 

[Vaeron]

Do Minions really have zero HP?

I guess it's just another thing I don't like about 4E... but the way I see it, a wizard shouldn't be able to mow through an army of mooks with his dagger (at least not reliably). That's something that the fighting types should be able to do.

Well, there's a couple problems with that. How is the wizard going to know they're Kobold Minions and not Kobold Skirmishers? Instead of describing the creature, just say "You are attacked by a Kobold Minion(tm)?" One example given somewhere (some WoTC blog) on keeping players on their toes was having a tavern attacked by some zombie minions, but having an actual zombie mixed in with the bunch.

Another problem is that minions wear armor just like everyone else, so are not necessarily any easier to hit, and many of them gain to hit or damage bonuses thru assisting adjacent allies with their own attacks.

Also, they don't have 0 hitpoints, that's a false statement. Kobold Minion have only 1 hitpoint. Vampire Spawn are minions that have about 10 hitpoints. Think of minions as the "generic soldiers of the evil empire" in a scifi movie, you know - the ones who everyone is scared of but the heros mow them down with no problem (aka Stormtroopers).

4e no longer has ridiculous contrivances like level 20 commoners. Most creatures are just ordinary creatures, and that's what a minion is. A typical member of their race.

 

[DandD]

I think minions might have as much hp as two times their level-modified constitution modifier.

What I mean is, for example, the Vampire Minions have a con modifier of +5, correct? They have a constitution score of 14, earning them a +2, and they're level 6, giving it an additional +3 modifier, making it +5 total. The Vampire Minions are bloodied when they have 5 hitpoints. You're bloodied when you've reached half your total hitpoints.
Kobold Minions with their puny constitution score and their measly 1 level might just get 1 hitpoint therefore, as this is the absolute minimum you can have without being auto-disabled for battle.

 

[hong]

It's probably safe to say that human and orc minions will be a wee bit tougher than kobold minions.

 

[DandD]

Depends. If they're only level 3 or 4, and still only have a measly constitution score, I don't see them having as much as Vampire Spawn Minions, and still able to be one-shoted.

 

[Kordeth]

Kobold Minions with their puny constitution score and their measly 1 level might just get 1 hitpoint therefore, as this is the absolute minimum you can have without being auto-disabled for battle.

Again, though, what possible reason could they have for writing out "minions die when they suffer an attack that deals damage" in the kobold minion stat block instead of "HP: 1" unless "die when hit by an attack that deals damage" is a standard feature of the minion type? I haven't seen any of the "minions have X hp" theories explain why the kobold minion would be written this way.

(Granted, even if minions do all die automatically in one hit, I don't get why they aren't just given 1 hp as a global feature, but there may be something we aren't seeing yet that makes it more obvious.)

 

[Pistonrager]

Best reason I can see to not have a real number is the ability to give things temporary hit points which removes the ability to one-shot them.

 

[VannATLC]

The best reason is so that things like environment damage (should it exist) won't kill them. (Which it shouldn't)

Having said that, it opens other concerns regarding how much incidental damage they could take.

*sigh*

 

[Ulorian - Agent of Chaos]

The best reason is so that things like environment damage (should it exist) won't kill them. (Which it shouldn't)

Having said that, it opens other concerns regarding how much incidental damage they could take.

*sigh*

Is this something likely to come up in your games very often? If it does, make an off-the-cuff ruling and move on. I see your *sigh* and raise you a *sigh*.