Monster Manual Edition War: The Game!

[the Jester]

So let's have a different kind of edition war- a fun one that involves actually pitting monsters against one another. The basic concept is this:

Each team consists of one of each monster from the first hardback Monster Manual of its edition. The teams FIGHT!!!!! Which team wins?

Now, granting that you need to do a lot of adjudicating to figure how to work things when you're talking about "make a save vs. Poison or die" against a 4e monster, or what "lose a healing surge" means against a 3.5 creature...

But still, which team do you think would win, and why?

The books in play:

1e Monster Manual
2e Monstrous Manual
3.0 Monster Manual
4e Monster Manual

 

[drothgery]

I'd say it gets knocked down to 2e vs 4e pretty quickly; 1e and 3e just don't have the numbers to deal with the hordes from the Monstrous Manual. Neither does 4e, but it has epic-teir monsters in the core book.

 

[the Jester]

I'd say it gets knocked down to 2e vs 4e pretty quickly; 1e and 3e just don't have the numbers to deal with the hordes from the Monstrous Manual. Neither does 4e, but it has epic-teir monsters in the core book.

Ahh, but 1e has Asmodeus, Orcus, Demogorgon, Tiamat, Bahamut, Yeenoghu, Juiblex, Baalzebul, Geryon... a goodly number of ultrapowerful singular entities. None of the other editions have such a suite of top-level creatures in their MM.

EDIT: And 3e has solars.

 

[Stormonu]

Why not do a monster-by-monster comparison over it's edition lifespan (or just how much has it changed)? Art + "coolness"/usability factor for its stats in its own edition (i.e., is the 1E rust monster good/clunky/sucks in 1E? is the 2E rust monster good/clunky/sucks in 2E? Is the 3E rust monster good/clunky/sucks in 3E? Is the 4E rust monster good/clunky/sucks in 4E?)

 

[Raven Crowking]

The 4e monsters are at an extreme disadvantage, as they do not get to make saving throws. One area SoD effect automatically wipes them all out. Say, a disrobing nymph.

Hit point wise, no other edition can touch the inflated numbers of 4e monsters, so pure melee always goes to 4e.

 

[ExploderWizard]

I choose the 1E housecat to take down anything else in its weight class.

 

[the Jester]

The 4e monsters are at an extreme disadvantage, as they do not get to make saving throws. One area SoD effect automatically wipes them all out. Say, a disrobing nymph.

Elite creatures get +2 to saves and solos get +5, so I don't think I buy your argument here.

Hit point wise, no other edition can touch the inflated numbers of 4e monsters, so pure melee always goes to 4e.

I was wondering (idly, without bothering to check) whether 3e or 4e monsters have more hit points at the high end of the MMs. I wonder if a 3e balor or pit fiend has more than a 4e balor or pit fiend, for instance.

I choose the 1E housecat to take down anything else in its weight class.

CHEATER!

The cat is in the 1e MM2.

 

[Raven Crowking]

Elite creatures get +2 to saves and solos get +5, so I don't think I buy your argument here.

Hrm. My understanding is that 4e saving throws always occur at the end of the victim's turn (unless granted by an outside source), so that the save can end an effect, but not prevent it.

In the event of the nymph's disrobing, everyone is automatically "hit", but there is no "save ends". It is very much more powerful than many 4e creature abilities. The 4e creature gains no save when the power comes into play, and the condition (save ends, or whatever) is determined by the creature who's power it is (and, in this case, there is no save to ameliorate the effect once it has "hit").

Alternatively, we could rewrite the interaction so that the 4e monster does get a save when the effect occurs, but then we would need to similarly change the rules for previous edition monsters to assume similar parity.

One of the amusing things about TSR vs. WotC monsters is that the tougher a monster is to hit, the easier it is to hit from a "different company" creature. So, the TSR monster revels in its -10 AC, until it runs into a 3e or 4e kobold. Likewise, that AC 30 doesn't help you against a TSR creature, which hits higher ACs more easily.


RC

 

[Redbadge]

Hrm. My understanding is that 4e saving throws always occur at the end of the victim's turn (unless granted by an outside source), so that the save can end an effect, but not prevent it.

RC

4e creatures can get saves outside of these circumstances, including to prevent effects. For example, if you would be teleported vertically or forced off a cliff, you get a saving throw to prevent it.

Alternatively, if you wanted something like a "Will Save" you could just take its Will defense, subtract 10 and add the resulting number to a d20 roll.

 

[the Jester]

I'm assuming that we'd flip AC.

I guess if the nymph's attack uses 1e rules, the creature gets a 1e save (with its 4e bonus).