Monster & Treasure distribution in older editions

[Raven Crowking]

There are tables in the 1e DMG for generating higher-level characters, which might be considered a kind of median yardstick.


RC

 

[ExploderWizard]

True, an exact equation does not exist, and I think this is an oversight in AD&D1. Well, we really didn't need an exact equation, but some more formed guidelines would have been helpful. All we really got as advice was basically, "don't be too stingy, and don't be Monty Haul."

What we got as actual hard-evidence examples were:
- Random treasure type charts -- often resulted in wildly varied treasures.
- Pregenerated characters in some modules -- some had 1st level characters with magic items, and some had 10th level characters with just +1 sword, +1 armor.
- Actual treasure placement in published modules -- This seemed to become the standard for most DMs without any other clues.

It would have been helpful for me, and I think for the game at large, for the DMG to have given some kind of yardstick for judging an appropriate average for treasure placement. I even think EGG did have a yardstick for judging this, because looking at his "adventure path" (Temple of Elemental Evil, Against the Giants, etc.), the xp in each adventure was enough to improve the PCs to a level matching the next adventure in the series. He had to either plan it to work that way, or it was just an incredibly lucky random guess, repeatedly.

I wonder if he avoided putting a yardstick for treasure in the DMG because he was concerned that DMs might feel tied to it? "I must not give more or less than this set amount."

Bullgrit

I think you answered your own question at the end there. Earlier editions didn't bother dictating arbitrary power levels. The playing group could decide such things for themselves. What business does a rulebook have telling DM's exactly how much treasure should exist in thier campaigns?

The DMG actually did mention that the treasure found in published official adventures should not be used as a measure of what a well balanced campaign should offer as treasure (which I still find funny to this day).

Also, treasure (including magic items) of a certain quantified amount were not attached to characters by some astral metagame umbilical cord. Great fortunes could be won and lost in the course of a campaign. There was no chart that specified that a character of a given level should have X amount of bling as a universal standard.

These were the days when Krunk the warrior could stroll into town with 20000 gold, spend half of it drinking and gambling, get rolled by a wanton trollop for the rest along with his gear, and have to start searching for a new fortune.

 

[Bullgrit]

ExploderWizard, your choices for phrasing your sentences in the above reply rub me the wrong way. You're throwing out loaded buzz words, and speaking with an attitude that I don't enjoy conversing with. I was interested in this discussion, but I'll just bow out now, rather than respond to your choice of engagement.

Bullgrit

 

[ExploderWizard]

ExploderWizard, your choices for phrasing your sentences in the above reply rub me the wrong way. You're throwing out loaded buzz words, and speaking with an attitude that I don't enjoy conversing with. I was interested in this discussion, but I'll just bow out now, rather than respond to your choice of engagement.

Bullgrit

Could you share the loaded buzzwords so that I know what you mean? I was just pointing out that what some see as an oversight, others see as achieving a design goal.

 

[billd91]

I wonder if he avoided putting a yardstick for treasure in the DMG because he was concerned that DMs might feel tied to it? "I must not give more or less than this set amount."

If past discussions on EnWorld have taught me anything, 3e putting expected wealth levels in writing sure seemed to do just that for a lot of players and DMs.

 

[Yabanjin]

If past discussions on EnWorld have taught me anything, 3e putting expected wealth levels in writing sure seemed to do just that for a lot of players and DMs.

That's been my experience, too. I started with 3rd edition, and reading 1e a couple of years later, I was really struck with a sense that it's a less constrained sort of game experience, at least as far as treasures are concerned. 3rd edition had random treasure tables, too, and I used 'em, but I never got visions of a table full of players high-fiving because they got lucky, killed something way bigger than themselves, and went home rich. Not that 3rd Edition can't do that, it just wasn't obvious to me when I was a new DM picking up 3e that such a thing was possible or desirable.

To put it another way, I got the sense from 1e that the amount of challenge and treasure available is determined not just by what the DM puts out there, but also by how adventurous the players decide to be. It's not as though 3e can't do that, too, but Gygax's writing seems to encourage that mindset more than Tweet, Cook and Williams' writing does. I think the emphasis on randomized treasures is part of that.

 

[Raven Crowking]

What about treasure found literally just lying around? There are many examples in published AD&D1 modules where treasure is found unguarded, untrapped, and unhidden in a dungeon. Is this bad design? Or is it verisimilitude for the game world?

Please. Regale us with your many examples, that we may answer your question. Please use the exact wording in the module text, and let us know which module and which area.

The number of examples supplied can be counted on one hand, even with the entire hand missing.

Can we call this meme dead now?


RC

 

[Aurumvorax]

I don't see the big confusion regarding the old treasure charts. You determined what the party would be fighting, rolled to see what kind of treasure they might have, then listed it as a horde on some scrap paper. Animals don't carry treasure but they clean out their dens which contain the bodies of people that do. Intelligent creatures only carry portable treasure (rings, weapons, jewels, etc.) and leave everything else in their lair. If you decided to track down the lair of a random encounter, then good for you. You were encouraged to do this!

Adventures in AD&D were very freeform. Even published adventures like Keep on the Borderlands were so ridiculously challenging that the party was expected to leave then return after gaining some levels and treasure. The concept of ECL didn't exist because the world didn't cater to the PCs. The DM had free reign to modify the hordes he rolled and some monsters existed specifically to destroy extraneous treasure.

By modern standards the "kill-my-treasure" type of monsters popular in AD&D are considered bad design but the attitude I remember from playing 2nd Edition was "Easy come, easy go." The difference in power is definitely less than 3E where you rely more on magical items to get you through the day.

The number of examples supplied can be counted on one hand, even with the entire hand missing.

Can we call this meme dead now?


RC

The very first room in Castle Caldwell had a sack of coins under a table. Unless you count hidden treasure (although finding it was as simple as saying "Search the room") as guarded then there are plenty of examples of treasure laying about.

 

[Raven Crowking]

The very first room in Castle Caldwell had a sack of coins under a table. Unless you count hidden treasure (although finding it was as simple as saying "Search the room") as guarded then there are plenty of examples of treasure laying about.

Cool. So long as the party is willing to spend 10 minutes looking (1 turn is specified in the text), they find the sack of coins, etc. So, it is hidden, and is not an AD&D 1e module.

Bullgrit's claim that there are "many examples in published AD&D1 modules where treasure is found unguarded, untrapped, and unhidden in a dungeon" is still unexampled......

......BUT were we kind enough to say "close enough" and agree that the hand needs a thumb to keep count, we are still a far cry from "many examples". I would be happy with Basic D&D modules counting as well as AD&D 1e. I note, though, that "unguarded, untrapped, and unhidden" per Bullgrit doesn't really apply here.

So, half an example. Can anyone do better? With the "many examples" Bullgrit claims, surely it shouldn't be hard to come up with one clear example?

Or can we finally let this meme die?


RC

 

[grodog]

Some guidelines for dungeon-based placement of empty rooms, monsters, monsters + treasure, treasure, and "specials" (I really dislike that term) are mentioned throughout in OD&D, Basic/Expert, and AD&D rules and supplements. Here's a compilation of suggested percentage breakdowns, put together by TFoster over on Dragonsfoot awhile ago:

I ended up with around 120 individual rooms (for instance, in the scan posted above the single "apartment" with the shrine has 13 total rooms) and had 42 placed monsters (the 12 major encounters plus 30 minor ones), so about a third of the total, which matches the "BtB" population density more-or-less. I didn't use the random-stocking method of vol. 3 (roll 1d6 for each room, 1-2 = monster) and instead looked at the map, looked at the list of monsters, and placed each one where I thought it fit best (which could be called the "B1 method," I suppose).

A not-entirely-anticipated side effect of this relatively sparse density is that it allowed most monsters a de-facto "zone of control" of a few rooms -- for instance, the wights were technically laired in the room numbered 22 on the map, but it seemed fitting that they actually controlled that entire 4-room mini-complex, so that's how I played it. The same with the bugbears in room 16 -- the party actually ended up encountering them in an adjacent "empty" chamber (SW of room 16, not shown in the scan above). Only the fire beetles (room 7) and the ghouls (room 5) were encountered in their actual assigned "lairs" (and, in the latter case, had the party actually fought them, I bet I would've ended up hiding their treasure in that 10x20 side "closet" room rather than the actual numbered room).

This density, this proportion of empty-to-occupied rooms, I think gave a really good feel and pace to the game. It never felt too empty (except perhaps the part around area 37 -- in the heat of play I believe I ended up combining a couple of those rooms into a single larger room) but gave the players enough room to move around and do a bit of actual exploring without being constantly beleagured by monsters. Contrast to the game I ran in 2004 (my last "homemade" dungeon prior to this one) where, because I'd gone with the module-style "something interesting in every room" paradigm, the players ended up spending something like 4 sessions exploring the same 3 rooms (the entrance to a goblin lair -- between forays by the party they'd move up reinforcements, erect new barricades, etc. so the party was constantly fighting to claim the same territory over and over, like a sort of fantasy WWI). These guys in a single 4 hour session explored 16 rooms and had 5 encounters (plus wandering monsters and, umm, "player generated" encounters). To me, that's pretty good!

and

I don't much like the distribution of the Moldvay/Mentzer chart (even though it's very easy to use), because I think it results in too many tricks/traps/"specials" and not enough empty rooms. I think you get better results following the distribution of the Solo Dungeons & Dragons Adventures tables in SR#1:

Chamber or Room Contents

Die Contents
1-12.....empty
13,14....monster only (determine from D&D, Vol. III)
15-17...monster and treasure (see table below)
18.........special* or empty
19.........Trick/Trap (see TABLE VII.)
20.........Treasure (see table below)

*insert a sealed envelope indicating room contents which can be prepared for you by any willing person, and open the envelope when indicated above.

or the level-stocking advice in the Dungeon Geomorphs and/or Monster and Treasure Assortments (none of which quite match each other, or the tables in Vol. III, naturally):

Approximately 25% of the rooms and large spaces should contain monsters, treasures, and other notable items. For every five such rooms there should be approximately one trap. Slanting passages, teleportation areas, slides, and the like should be added sparingly thereafter--one or two such items per level is a fair guideline.

It is strongly suggested that each DM prepare several special monsters - along with whatever treasure each such monster guards - for each dungeon level, carefully placing them according to an overall schematism for the particular level (and possibly in relation to a multi-level plan or a specific design for the whole dungeon complex). Thereafter, it is a simple matter to move to the list of randomly generated monsters and select which should be in proximity to the specially placed monsters. Finally, the remaining areas where some monster is needed are easily filled by selection from the list in any manner desired, from numerical progression to random selection by generation of numbers 1 to 100.

Treasures are also listed in groups of 100 by level of the dungeon in order to allow easy random selection if desired. However, it is recommended that the DM selectively place as many treasures as possible, doubling up in some cases, and augmenting the whole by noting where and how the treasures are protected and/or hidden. It should also be noted that just as a dungeon level should have monsters in only 20% or so of the available rooms and chambers, about 20% of the monsters should have no treasure whatsoever. By having one monster in five or six with no treasure, it is easier to conceal treasure that the other monsters guard, for players will not automatically know that somewhere nearby there is certainly some loot to glean. If you believe that 15% to 20% is too restrictive, lower it to 10% and give the remaining 5% to 10% nothing more than a few low-value coins in clothing worn or whatever. Do likewise with other monsters which do have additional (carefully hidden) treasure.

Combining all of the above with your 36 rooms would result in something like:

20 empty
3 monster only
7 monster and treasure
2 trick/trap
2 special
2 treasure

which looks like a pretty good distribution to me As for the size of the level, 36 rooms feels too small to me for a dungeon level 1 -- that many rooms/encounters could probably provide enough XP to get a party of characters from 0 XP up to 2nd level with no losses, but character attrition means XP will be "lost" (as characters with 1000 or so XP, or even 2nd or 3rd level characters, die and are replaced by new characters with 0 XP) so you're almost certainly going to find yourself "running out of dungeon" -- you'll have 1st level characters with dungeon level 1 too cleared out to provide enough XP for them to get to 2nd level. For that reason it's usually a good idea to make dungeon level 1 2-3 times larger than you would a "normal" level (this was one of the lessons of Evreaux's megadungeon campaign).

and

I like your proportions analysis, here, Trent!---have you done anything to compare the encounter allotments from the various early editions in general? It would be interesting to compare OD&D to Holmes to Moldvay to SR random generation tables to DMG random generation tables.

and

The actual distribution (i.e. the numbers) are pretty consistent from edition to edition, but there are some interesting differences in the accompanying text:

DISTRIBUTION OF MONSTERS AND TREASURE

As a general rule there will be far more uninhabited space on a level than there will be space occupied by monsters, human or otherwise. The determination of just where monsters should be placed, and whether or not they will be guarding treasure, and how much of the latter if they are guarding something, can become burdensome when faced with several levels to do at one time. It is a good idea to thoughtfully place several of the most important treasures, with or without monstrous guardians, and then switch to a random determination for the balance of the level. Naturally, the more important treasures will consist of various magical items and large amounts of wealth in the form of gems and jewelry. Once these have been secreted in out-of-the-way locations, a random distribution using a six-sided die can be made as follows:

1. Roll the die for every room or space not already allocated. A roll of a 1 or 2 indicates that there is some monster there. The monster(s) can be selected by use of the Monster Determination & Level of Monster Matrix which is given later in this booklet. The number of monsters is best determined by the level being considered and the kind of monster inhabiting the room or space. The Monster Table from Volume II can be most helpful here. Note that Ochre Jellies, Black Puddings, Green Slime, etc. are generally distributed randomly, usually in passages, without treasure.
2. Roll again for every room and space. A roll of 1-3 in those rooms or spaces with monsters in them indicates some form of treasure is present. A roll of 1 in a room or space which is unoccupied indicates that there is some form of treasure there.
3. To determine the kind of treasure use the following table:
   

   Level Beneath Surface	Silver	Gold	Gems/Jewelry	Magic
   1	100*	10*	05% each*	05%
   2-3	100**	100*	10% each*	05%
   4-5	1000*	200*	20% each*	10%
   6-7	2000*	500*	30% each*	15%
   8-9	5000*	1000*	40% each**	20%
   10-12	5000*	2000*	50% each**	25%
   13 or more	10000*	5000*	50% each**	30%

   *multiply by number rolled on a six-sided die
   **multiply by number rolled on a twelve-sided die
   
   Silver will always be in the treasure.
   Gold will be in the treasure 50% of the time.
   Gems/Jewelry will be in the treasure as indicated by the percent given.
   Magic will be in the treasure as indicated by the percent give.

Unguarded Treasures should be invisible, hidden behind a secret door or under the floor, locked in hard-to-open strong boxes with poison needles or deadly gas released when they are opened. (There are many variants of the above possible, and many other types of protection which can be devised.)

[OD&D gives no formula/roll for placement of tricks or traps]

SAMPLE FLOOR PLAN, PART OF FIRST LEVEL

Each new room or area is given a code number and a record made on a separate page of what it contains, treasure, monsters, hidden items, etc. Place a few special items first, then randomly assign treasure and monsters to the other rooms using the selection provided in the game or appropriate tables. Many rooms should be empty. Roll a 6-sided die for each room. A roll of 1 or 2 indicates that some monster is there. Ochre jellies, green slime, black puddings, etc. are randomly distributed, usually without treasure, most often in corridors and passageways.

[Holmes Basic gives no formula/roll for placement of tricks, traps, or treasure]

E. STOCK THE DUNGEON

To "stock" a dungeon means to fill in the general details, such as monsters, treasure, and traps. Special monsters should be first placed in the appropriate rooms along with special treasures. The remaining rooms can be stocked as the DM wishes. If there is no preference as to how certain rooms are stocked, the following system may be used. Roll 1d6 for CONTENTS, and then roll on the second table for TREASURE according to the result of the first roll. A "Yes" result means that Treasure is there along with whatever is indicated by the first roll.

1-2	Monster	1	Yes	Yes	Yes
3	Trap	2	Yes	Yes	No
4	Special	3	Yes	No	No
5-6	Empty	4-6	No	No	No

[tmultiheader=2]First Roll: CONTENTS[/tmultiheader][tmultiheader=4]Second Roll: TREASURE?[/tmultiheader] [theader]Die Roll[/theader][theader]Result[/theader][theader]Die Roll[/theader][theader]Monster[/theader][theader]Trap[/theader][theader]Empty[/theader]

A Monster result means that the DM should roll on a Wandering Monsters table to determine the type present. A Trap may be located in an empty room or on treasure. A Special is anything not exactly a trap, but placed for special reasons. The DM should make up traps and specials, but some suggestions are given below.

[snip]

TREASURE: If treasure is in a room with a monster, use the Treasure Type for that monster (given in the monster description) to find the treasure in the room. If treasure is in a room without a monster, use the Unguarded Treasure table (below). The table is used in the same way as the Treasure Types table (page B45).

1	1d6 x 100	50%: 1d6 x 10	5%: 1d6	2%: 1d6	2%: Any 1
2-3	1d12 x 100	50%: 1d6 x 100	10%: 1d6	5%: 1d6	8%: Any 1

[tmultiheader=6]Unguarded Treasure[/tmultiheader] [theader]Dungeon Level[/theader][theader]*Silver Pieces[/theader][theader]Gold Pieces[/theader][theader]Gems[/theader][theader]Jewelry[/theader][theader]Magic Items[/theader]

*Note that there will always be silver pieces in unguarded treasure, and that other items are given in terms of the die rolled to determine the number present.

5. Stock the Dungeon

The process of placing the monsters, traps, and treasures into the dungeon is called "stocking" the dungeon. First, place the Special Monsters in their areas, along with their treasures. Then you may either select other creatures or roll for them at random, using either the Wandering Monster Tables (inside back cover) or a list of your own.

To randomly determine the contents of rooms you may use the system explained on the following pages.

[snip]

Random Stocking

After placing Special Monsters in a dungeon, you may fill the rest of a dungeon with creatures either at random or by choosing. Many rooms should be left empty. If there are creatures everywhere, the dungeon will be too dangerous. As a way of checking, imagine what would happen in the dungeon when the adventurers aren't around. If the monsters would encounter each other often, they should not be enemies; otherwise, the dungeon could be ruined! It would be nearly empty before the adventurers arrive, with all the dungeon treasure in the lair of the last survivors.

To randomly stock a dungeon room, roll 1d6 twice and consult the Room Contents Table. The first toll is to find the contents (monster, trap, special, or empty), and the second roll shows whether treasure is present.

1-2	Empty	T	-	-	-	-	-
3	Trap	T	T	-	-	-	-
4-5	Monster	T	T	T	-	-	-
6	Special

[tmultiheader=8]ROOM CONTENTS TABLE[/tmultiheader] [tmultiheader=2]First[/tmultiheader][tmultiheader=6]Second Roll[/tmultiheader] [tmultiheader=2]Roll[/tmultiheader][theader]1[/theader][theader]2[/theader][theader]3[/theader][theader]4[/theader][theader]5[/theader][theader]6[/theader] [tmulticell=6](usually no treasure)[/tmulticell]

Use the first roll to find the contents, and then read across to the column under the result of the second roll. If the result is "T," place treasure in the room. Treasure is rarely found with a "Special." The amount of treasure can be determined by using the random Treasure Table:

1	1d6 x 100	50% 1d6 x 10	5% 1d6	2% 1d6	2% Any 1
2-3	1d12 x 100	50% 1d6 x 100	10% 1d6	5% 1d6	8% Any 1

[tmultiheader=6]RANDOM TREASURES TABLE[/tmultiheader] [theader]Dungeon Level[/theader][theader]Silver Pieces[/theader][theader]Gold Pieces[/theader][theader]Gems[/theader][theader]Jewelry[/theader][theader]Magic Items[/theader]

Silver pieces are always part of randomly places treasure, and other items might be found. The DM rolls Percentage dice, and if the result is equal to or less than the number given, that type of treasure is also present. Treasure should rarely be sitting out on the floor. You should decide where the treasure is kept (a locked chest) or hidden (in a hollow table leg, etc.).

You'll have to look at the DF post to see the table data and formatting in the last post: apparently the table tags aren't supported in ENWorld php.