Monster Types

[Nifft]

Why does fey and demon being the same type make you theologically uncomfortable? I mean, why should fey (sprightly embodiments of nature) be all that different from demon (angry embodiments of bad stuff)?

Just curious. "Just 'cause" is valid here, of course, as is "taste", but I want to know what about it off-puts: it suits me really well.

Basically because I see Devils as being things from outside of nature, while fey (and elementals) are embodiments of nature.

Similarly, I see angels as agents of -- well, I guess forces of Civilization rather than Animism, and I could easily envision a conflict between Good angels and Good fey due to their difference in views about the balance between nature and morality. In a game without alignment, I see even more room for conflict!

1. LO, AND THE LORD looked down, and saw Jebeliah being a jerkwad;
2. AND IN HIS WRATH, did He decree a plague upon his lands;
3. AND A SALTING of the barren earth unto the seventh generation---

"Wait wait wait. Hold up, NO. Jebeliah was a jerkwad and all, but this land is NOT yours to smite with salty suffering."

4. THUS DID THE HOST descend upon the land, with flame and sword---

"Hey! You get your big bald butt back up where you belong! Put down the flaming sword! PUT DOWN THAT FLAMING SWORD!!!"

- - -

From a mechanical stand point, I'd like there to be a difference between stuff that blocks Fey and/or Elementals, stuff that blocks Undead, and stuff that blocks Outsiders -- just because I see those being the three major minion types for PCs (summoned / animated), and it'd be cool if each had its own strengths & weaknesses.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Khuxan]

Basically because I see Devils as being things from outside of nature, while fey (and elementals) are embodiments of nature.

Similarly, I see angels as agents of -- well, I guess forces of Civilization rather than Animism, and I could easily envision a conflict between Good angels and Good fey due to their difference in views about the balance between nature and morality. In a game without alignment, I see even more room for conflict!

Surely creatures that share a type can have conflict? Mortal Humanoid [Human]s manage to have plenty of conflicts amongst themselves, let alone with Mortal Humanoid [Orc]s. I don't see that that would be any different with angels and fey.

From a mechanical stand point, I'd like there to be a difference between stuff that blocks Fey and/or Elementals, stuff that blocks Undead, and stuff that blocks Outsiders -- just because I see those being the three major minion types for PCs (summoned / animated), and it'd be cool if each had its own strengths & weaknesses.

This, on the other hand, I completely understand.

 

[TwinBahamut]

I don't see any problem with grouping Dryads and Demons under the same type...

Dryads are tree spirits.

Demons are evil spirits.

Mythically, the difference between demons and any other kind of spirit is that demons are evil and will try to do you harm, and other spirits will not necessarily do so. That is pretty much it. I mean, classically speaking, the difference between "Devils" and "Efreeti" is minor. Islamic myth holds that demons are just a sub-set of djinni. Greek myth doesn't really have distinct set of "demons", just evil gods, giants, and monsters, so it is hard to make a direct comparison with a dryad.

I mean, my favorite depiction of the relationship between spirits and demons is the anime film Princess Mononoke, in which demons are just spirits who have gone insane with anger and hatred.

So I can't really relate to your problem, Nifft.

As a side note, I really am glad that the term "Outsider" seems to be dead. I hated that term, and all the cosmological implications that demons and angels and the like are seperate from the physical world.

 

[Nifft]

Surely creatures that share a type can have conflict? Mortal Humanoid [Human]s manage to have plenty of conflicts amongst themselves, let alone with Mortal Humanoid [Orc]s. I don't see that that would be any different with angels and fey.

Yeah, as I was writing this I realized I could be a lot clearer. For example, angels and devils could be the same type, and they surely have a conflict.

What I'm trying to get at here is that the angels & devils should have at least a common framework -- they think in terms of divine will, sin, morality, victory in the eternal war, etc. -- while fey should have a mental and moral framework which is utterly different -- cycles, balance, etc. And this difference in outlook could be the result of their most fundamental natures.

Thus, their fundamental natures would need to be different.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers, -- N

 

[Khuxan]

Yeah, as I was writing this I realized I could be a lot clearer. For example, angels and devils could be the same type, and they surely have a conflict.

What I'm trying to get at here is that the angels & devils should have at least a common framework -- they think in terms of divine will, sin, morality, victory in the eternal war, etc. -- while fey should have a mental and moral framework which is utterly different -- cycles, balance, etc. And this difference in outlook could be the result of their most fundamental natures.

Thus, their fundamental natures would need to be different.

Does that make more sense?

Cheers, -- N

I understand what you're saying now, but I don't think I agree with it. You talk about fey having a "mental and moral framework" which is utterly different - and then say their fundamental natures would need to be different to facilitate this... but I don't think that's necessary. A paladin might think in terms of divine will, sin, morality and victory in the eternal war and a druid in terms of cycles and balance and yet have the same physiology and 'fundamental nature' (heck, they could be the same class if they were clerics).

I see both as spirits of sorts, extrahuman entities that represent concepts, philosophies and ideologies. The fact that I can exploit their connection to other planes, 'Nature' or alignment in different ways, doesn't change the fact that they have the same fundamental nature.

IMO, of course.

 

[Nifft]

I mean, my favorite depiction of the relationship between spirits and demons is the anime film Princess Mononoke, in which demons are just spirits who have gone insane with anger and hatred.
[...]
As a side note, I really am glad that the term "Outsider" seems to be dead. I hated that term, and all the cosmological implications that demons and angels and the like are seperate from the physical world.

Well, they kinda are. And fey & elementals are part of the physical world.

If angels & devils are from the afterlife (as in, they want your soul, for good or ill), then they are in a way outside the circle of nature. They are ... collectors, rather than participants.

In Princess Mononoke, the demon may taint your flesh, but all it'll do is kill you. In D&D, devils don't just want to see you dead -- they want you dead and serving them forever.

Cheers, -- N

 

[The Shadow]

I see a lot of people speculating that "Immortal" is some sort of metabolic descriptor, but I can't see how it would be useful.

I suspect that "Immortal" (with a capital "I") is the new term for outsiders - much like OD&D's Immortals. Spirits from the Astral Sea, to be precise.

If I'm right, I see it as quite an improvement. "Outsider" is a really dorky term.

 

[Nifft]

I understand what you're saying now, but I don't think I agree with it. You talk about fey having a "mental and moral framework" which is utterly different - and then say their fundamental natures would need to be different to facilitate this... but I don't think that's necessary. A paladin might think in terms of divine will, sin, morality and victory in the eternal war and a druid in terms of cycles and balance and yet have the same physiology and 'fundamental nature' (heck, they could be the same class if they were clerics).

Well, of course -- a Paladin is a human, while a spirit of any sort is an externalization of one subset of the range of human emotion, expression, and outlook.

IMHO, spirits of the living world should be somehow different from the guardians and/or wardens of the afterlife.

Cheers, -- N

 

[Baduin]

Fey, in some traditions, were those spirits who neither obeyed God nor rebelled against him, but instead remained neutral.

http://www.sacred-texts.com/neu/celt/sce/

But really, no one said that Fey will be Immortal Humanoids in D&D.

 

[frankthedm]

As a side note, I really am glad that the term "Outsider" seems to be dead. I hated that term, and all the cosmological implications that demons and angels and the like are seperate from the physical world.

The term is fine for things not bound by the structures of the mortal world. My beef with the term is that most outsiders are not alien enough to be realy be from 'outside'. Most are still bipeds and almost all die from tissue damage some just taking an inordinate amount. Figuring out how to slay an Outsider should be as difficult as the actual killing.