Monster Vault: Mages of Saruun

[Matt James]

Want for me to design you some epic tier monsters? I can give you a PDF but it won't be anything official from WotC. I'm not being a smart-butt either. If people want me to design some epic tier content, I would not mind doing so.

I was one of the four designers on this MV product. I obviously cannot say much about it due to my NDA, but I hope I can help sooth you, Aegeri

As for should of and could of, I'm of a different mind. It has been apparent for awhile that players have been looking for specific content and for that content to have rich and detailed presentation. The MV products thus far seem to be handling that aptly and I believe MV:TNV will be no different. I assume you'll see a lot more epic-tier content, but I don't know how or when. In publishing there is a finite amount of space you have to work with and you need to produce as much quality content within that space as possible. Cramming monsters into the book just so they will cover all tiers just doesn't seem logical. If you did, you would run into similar issues that consumers of 4e had with some of the original books. This could very well be a matter of not being able to please everyone, all of the time. I don't know. I do know that those asking for epic tier monsters appear to be a very silent group. This isn't to say that they should be ignored, but I can only assume that WotC wants to devote resources to where it will be of the most gain (something I can't blame them for, at all).

Anyways, let me know if you want some epic monsters. I would be happy to design some in my free time, between projects.

 

[Aegeri]

Cramming monsters into the book just so they will cover all tiers just doesn't seem logical.

Neither does reprinting monsters with minor alterations like Vestapulk and Hurly Burly brothers to occupy 3 pages of a book. When those three pages could be used for much needed epic monsters - which allows for the wide exploration of a lot of different mechanics (and has very little "crowding" design space wise as well compared to a very crowded heroic tier and lower paragon). I could buy your logic if everything in this was really new, unique and everything else. When I see things that are original monster + 1 power I kind of sit there and go "Really?". Most of MV:TtNV is really exciting that I've seen. It's just it feels to me certain concepts were crammed into the book because of its limited scope - the complete opposite of your point actually.

For example other than half a page of fluff, what makes the Hurly Burly brothers such a unique and interesting monster to demand their page space? Mechanically the stat block is just a troll with a cleave power, with a trait that isn't actually worded quite correctly (fixed in final version?). But ultimately it's just a barely modified troll from MV. The number of monsters I've seen like this make me wonder if the heroic/paragon focus was to the detriment of the book. Where certain things just got put in just to fill a bit of space in an incredibly crowded couple of tiers monster wise. Hurly Burly Brothers, Vestapulk and Mages of Saruun feel like Dragon content to me, as they are largely updates of original existing monsters with rather functional equivalents already existing. Something like the Hound of Ill Omen, the Wandering Tower and Fell Court all demand their page space (though the Fell Court are paragon tier quality monsters pretending to be in the Low Heroic, I assume they just got lost!).

Want for me to design you some epic tier monsters? I can give you a PDF but it won't be anything official from WotC. I'm not being a smart-butt either. If people want me to design some epic tier content, I would not mind doing so

You should certainly do so! But bear in mind that official support from wizards is the most important in two ways (Not to belittle your work at all incidentally!): Firstly it shows that Wizards actually is going to give epic tier the support it needs. The odd monster made in peoples spare time does not equal a monster vault. For example you should check out Robert J. Schwalbs blog where he makes numerous epic tier creatures. Secondly it means they will be implemented into whatever monster design tools that - I can only hope - will eventually be usable at some point in future. Making - again I can only hope - redesigning and fiddling with them much easier. But if you make some epic monsters then put a thread here, I'll even join in helping you do so (I am not bad at monster design myself just quietly)! But what is really needed is wizards to show genuine and actual support - I feel they can do that in a future MV product without abandoning any tier.

I can also make my own monsters very successfully as well, but what I need are a good *chunk* (30+ individual monsters) of monsters all at once. Otherwise I'm going to get to epic tier, look at the hideous amount of work I'll have to do and just give up. That's really my choice at the moment: Do far more work than is required at any other tier or give up. Right now with the way my time is these days, one of those options is now untenable. Like I would be making more epic creatures in general now (working on an entire small epic adventure to showcase an Ancient Mithril Dragon for example*), but my other games demand attention and so I can't spare the time to "pre-prepare" epic tier as I would need to do.

I am aware of people claiming "Well it's SUPPOSED to be just for the Nentir vale", but I already accepted with Monster Vault "They wanted to update largely heroic/paragon monsters for new DMs". I accepted that argument and so I was silent at the time about MV not having epic content. Doing it twice in the row is what irks me. In this case I'm really not going to be sympathetic to wanting to have my room painted, then discovering the painter has trapped himself in a corner and won't bother painting the rest. Sure you have most of a very nicely painted room, with only the odd blemish here and there - but it would be far better to have the entire room painted.

*I shall put this up on the forum for everyones general benefit once it is finished.

 

[Matt James]

Looking back, all of the creatures I created for this appear to be new and not regurgitated. I hope you check it out. I think it will be cool. As for Rob, he's a good bud of mine. He too doesn't mind putting out cool stuff on his site when people ask.

Either way, I hope you end up finding what you're looking for. Thanks for the chat.

 

[Aegeri]

I hope you check it out.

Oh don't get me wrong, I've stated multiple times it's an absolute must buy for me. The best of the monsters I've seen so far in previews are absurdly good. I'm not even sure how I could praise something like the Wandering Tower any more than I already have. Then there are other monsters I'm really looking forward to like the Boggles (melee reach 10 artillery role monsters is such a great concept), whatever the Peryton turned out like (pet favourite monster of mine from 3rd edition) and what the Ancient White Dragon in the book looks like*.

*That last one might be an "update", but I am genuinely curious as to what ancient MV type dragons are supposed to be like compared with earlier ones. Plus if it gets to around level 21/22 it will at least be an epic creature (even if it will clearly be designed with upper paragon parties in mind). Mostly I just want to see if any of the powers get substantially changed - my epic ancient dragons include a Frightful Presence like effect as a free action at the start of the encounter for every enemy within line of sight that sees it for the first time).

Edit: Actually I have already paid for it. So there you go. Fetching it as soon it comes out!

 

[Matt James]

Oh, you know what. I did have an updated creature in this. You just jogged my memory. It's truly nasty though, I think everyone will love what I did with it. *ahem*

 

[Drammattex]

I don't usually talk this much on forums, but I'm feeling chatty.

Practical use: I plan to use the humanoid type groups for when I need to fill in an encounter with "like" creatures. My game is comprised of mostly human adversaries, so I've used the human bandits, rabble, thugs, etc, far far too many times. It's not that there's a small number of humans in the Compendium, but when I'm putting a game together I spend all my time on the dramatic and story elements and then cobble the mechanics together at the last minute--and I sometimes have a hard time finding the right match for the humanoid type I'm looking for (or else I just use the same ones over and over again).

For the humanoid groups I worked on, I approached it mechanically from that standpoint--putting in a nice level spread of several creatures across a variety of roles. You're not seeing the full range of the Mages of Saruun in the preview, but you'll have a better idea once the book is out. As I recall, I wanted to make them fairly typical D&D mages and keep them true to what was printed in Thunderspire Labyrinth. Keeping them typical means that homebrew DMs (like me) have instant stats for mages that we can flavor/reskin however we like.

Ultimately, MVNV should not only reintroduce a lot of really cool oldschool monsters with interesting story elements and solid mechanics, but also make it easy to throw together encounters along a theme (i.e. mages). I agree that groups of humanoids aren't nearly as exciting as monsters, but I do think people will get a lot of practical use from their mechanics. And again, I think when you see the full suite of stuff that comes with the Mages of Saruun you'll have a better idea of how varied and useful these can be.

Perhaps I'm only speaking for myself and the way I use monsters, but I think that with the wealth of stuff that will enter the Monster Builder and the Compendium after this, a lot of gaps will be filled and encounters like the ones I tend to run will be easier to put together (as well as more interesting).

Will it change your life with the sheer power of D&D awesomeness? Of course not; people will find things to like and things to dislike as usual, and often for reasons of personal need/preference. As for me, I'm exceptionally happy with what I've seen thus far, and the stuff Matt, Brian, and Sterling turned in was (imo) really, really cool. Furthermore, this Monster Vault line is the most detailed look at monsters D&D has ever had in a monster product (2e comes close, but the monster info tends to be ecological rather than story-focused). Anyway, I'm excited about it.

 

[Klaus]

I actually quite like the inclusion of humanoid groups as "themed monster entries". Makes it easier to give a campaign arc an unifying theme. Think of all the "Church of Bane" entries in previous editions (including the Banedead, Banelar, etc), for instance. If this was a Monster Vale: Dangers of Hyboria, there'd be an entry for the Picts, another for the Minions of Set, etc. So I think embracing villainous organizations as a monster entry is a good thing.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

I am looking forward to this book. And I like human "monsters". It is not that hard to create humans, but on te other hand, humans are the most needed opponents, especially in the heroic tier...

it is in epic, where humans get out of fashion... and it is the tier which needs the least support right now... (sorry Aegeri)

on the other hand, those monster update articles were the perfect place to update old monsters... i wished i get more physical products with monsters, but this would work too... (Nentir vale is really not the place for epic threads...)

 

[LostSoul]

Neither does reprinting monsters with minor alterations like Vestapulk and Hurly Burly brothers to occupy 3 pages of a book.

It does it it's a setting book which - in my opinion - this is.

 

[Aegeri]

It does it it's a setting book which - in my opinion - this is.

Which just shows the flaws in Wizards approach here, because honestly Vestapulk and the Hurly Burly brothers are not what I want from a new MV product. A Dungeon article that updates them or adds them into an adventure (with such minor alterations especially)? Sure, I can see that. But in a product I'm paying for? They're pretty dead weight unless they truly do something mechanically interesting: Which neither does.

I mean check out the Wandering Tower. That's exactly what should be in a book like this. If you want an example of what shouldn't be, Vestapulk is a perfect example. A leveled up Green Dragon from MV with an ally who is too low level for it to be relevant in an encounter with it. Cut that and put it in Dungeon, then put in something from the epic tier that desperately needed the space.