Monster XP Formula

[Spatula]

So, I was looking at the XP values wondering if there was an obvious progression there. And there is, up to level 18 at least.

For one thing, XP does not depend on monster "class" - brute, soldier, lurker, etc. Any creature of a particular level is worth the same XP as any other of the same level. Elites are worth twice as much for their level, solo monsters five times as much - makes sense, since they are supposed to take the place of two and five normal monsters, respectively. Based on the kobold minion example, minions seem to be worth 1/4 the xp for their level, but there's only one data point there.

Level 1 creatures are worth 100 xp.
For levels 2 through 5, each level adds +25 xp.
For levels 6 through 9, each level adds +50 xp.
For levels 10 through 13, each level adds +100 xp.
For levels 14 through 17, each level adds +200 xp.
For levels 18 through 21 (?), each level adds +400 xp.

Seems like a simple enough progression... unfortunately it breaks down there. There's no xp values that I've seen between 18 and 23. And at 23 we have an elite worth 10,700 xp (the chuul juggernaut), which means that a normal lvl 23 would be worth 5,350 xp. At level 26, we have the elite pit fiend at 18,000 xp, or 9,000 xp for a normal lvl 26. In both cases, the progression I posit above comes out lower than expected (4800 for lvl 23; 8000 for lvl 26).

If the progression (every 4 levels the amount of xp increase per level doubles) did hold out till level 30, you're left with a "normal" level 30 foe being worth 16,000 xp. I put the numbers at the end of this post for anyone interested (a ? denotes guesses rather than hard data). EDIT: Racinante posits what looks to be the correct progression downthread. The progression changes for Epic tier monsters, as follows:
For levels 22 through 25, each level adds +950 xp.
For levels 26 through 29, each level adds +2000 xp.

Implications for Encounter Design
This is the interesting part, to me. From what we've been told, a normal (whatever that means) encounter for a party would be a number of monsters equal to the number of players, at the same level the players are. So 4 1st level PCs face 4 1st level monsters, or: 400 xp. In theory we're supposed to be able to throw together anything that adds up to 400 xp, and it should be around the same difficulty. Which means that a party of 4 level 1s can fight a level 9 monster (gargoyle, grick alpha, shadow panther are ones we have stats for right now) with no problems. Or a level 10 if you have a party of 5 (chuul is the only non-elite of that level we have at the moment). Looking at the monster stats, this seems plausible - defenses are certainly higher, but none of these monsters does a ridiculous amount of damage or is impossible for the sample 1st level PCs to hit (although the grick's DR might be hard to bypass, depending on how 'resist' works).

It also shows you at what point a monster theoretically becomes cannon fodder - at least as far as xp is concerned. Minions are (possibly) worth 25% of the normal XP for their level. This is the same XP value as a normal monster's level - 8. So a level 9 minion should be worth 100 xp (same as a level 1), a level 15 minion worth 300 xp (same as a level 7), etc. This would suggest that you'd no longer want to use level 1 monsters once your party hits 10th level, no longer use 7th level monsters when the party is 16th, and so on.

The progression (updated):
lvl 1: 100
lvl 1 (minion): 25
lvl 2: 125
lvl 3: 150
lvl 4: 175
lvl 4 (solo): 875
lvl 5: 200
lvl 6: 250
lvl 7: 300
lvl 7 (elite): 600
lvl 8: 350
lvl 9: 400
lvl 10: 500
lvl 11: 600
lvl 11 (elite): 1200
lvl 12: 700
lvl 13: 800
lvl 14: 1000
lvl 15: 1200
lvl 16: 1400
lvl 17: 1600
lvl 18: 2000
lvl 19: 2400
lvl 20: 2800
lvl 21: 3200
lvl 22: 4150
lvl 23: 5100
lvl 23 (elite): 10200
lvl 24: 6050
lvl 25: 7000
lvl 26: 9000
lvl 26 (elite): 18000
lvl 27: 11000
lvl 28: 13000
lvl 29: 15000
lvl 30: 20000?

 

[BartD]

Level 1 creatures are worth 100 xp.
For levels 2 through 5, each level adds +25 xp.
For levels 6 through 9, each level adds +50 xp.
For levels 10 through 13, each level adds +100 xp.
For levels 14 through 17, each level adds +200 xp.
For levels 18 through 21 (?), each level adds +400 xp.

That means it doubles every 4 levels which is very neat, I hope it will (somehow) be the case for higher levels as well. Do we know anything about the number of xp required to level?

 

[LowSpine]

That means it doubles every 4 levels which is very neat, I hope it will (somehow) be the case for higher levels as well. Do we know anything about the number of xp required to level?

I think they said we gain a level every 10 encounters.

An encounter is meant to be 5 x a normal monster so alevel 1 encounter = 500xp

1000xp divided between 5 pcs = 100xp

So 100xp per pc per encounter.

10 encounters = 1000xp

I'd say 1st is 1000xp like 3.5.

After that you'll have to work he rest.

It should not be hard just take the xp for a normal creature of a given level and times it by 10 + the xp for the last level. Just a guess.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

Very interesting. Thanks for taking the time to do this.

It also shows you at what point a monster theoretically becomes cannon fodder - at least as far as xp is concerned. Minions are (possibly) worth 25% of the normal XP for their level. This is the same XP value as a normal monster's level - 8. So a level 9 minion should be worth 100 xp (same as a level 1), a level 15 minion worth 300 xp (same as a level 7), etc. This would suggest that you'd no longer want to use level 1 monsters once your party hits 10th level, no longer use 7th level monsters when the party is 16th, and so on.

Having puzzled over this myself to the point of frustration, I think we're going to see that the system can't be completely open, because it's far too difficult to balance vis-a-vis Lanchester's Laws.

You're basically never going to want to use more creatures than 4x Party Size. I don't think the relative power can scale fast enough. You're always going to want to build an encounter somewhere between 1 monster (Solo) and 4 minions per PC (100% minion group composition).

You will never want to build a 17th level encounter (1600xp per PC) by using 16 1st level minions per PC.

I also have my doubts that a level 1 monster will be "equivalent" to a level 9 minion-- but admittedly, we're missing quite a few pieces of this puzzle. Does a level 9 minion die after one successful attack, as is true of the kobold minion? Does minion automatically mean "one hit kills" or does this scale with level?

If that's true, it seems like the party might actually have an easier time with a level 9 minion than with the super-kobold skirmisher.

Of course minions might only work in reverse-- you simply never use a minion whose level is greater than the average PC level. In fact you might not be permitted to use any minion other than the exact level-appropriate one.

Have we seen yet what they call a monster that is designed for 2 per PC?

Solo = 5 PCs
Elite = 2 PCs
Normal = 1 PC
??? = 1/2 PC
Minion = 1/4 PC

 

[Knight Otu]

For what it's worth, Upper_Krust came to pretty much the same conclusions regarding XP values in a previous thread (the AICN thread 2 or 3, not quite sure which off-hand). He's also assuming that the values are simple minimums and could theoretically span the whole range up to the next level for monsters that are a bit over the curve.

??? = 1/2 PC

I don't think those exist, but if they did, I'd call them underlings.

 

[Wulf Ratbane]

I don't think those exist, but if they did, I'd call them underlings.

I started with "Henchmen" but that didn't seem to fit, either.

Take 1 Kobold Skirmisher, and then stick two Kobolds beside him who are less-than-he but yet not minions.

What to call them... ?

Hmm, well frankly I wouldn't have called the skirmisher a skirmisher. I think they set the bar at the wrong place with the "normal" nomenclature.

If the Kobold Skirmisher was, say, a Kobold Vanguard, then the two little guys could be Skirmishers.

 

[Knight Otu]

Perhaps Green (green troops)?

 

[Spatula]

You will never want to build a 17th level encounter (1600xp per PC) by using 16 1st level minions per PC.

It would take 64 1st level minions to equal 1600 xp, actually. But I know what you meant, and I think you're right. We still don't know how PCs scale, though. The offensive power curve is obviously flatter (looking at the mid-level wizard spells) but we don't know what effect items will have, nor what defenses will look like.

I also have my doubts that a level 1 monster will be "equivalent" to a level 9 minion-- but admittedly, we're missing quite a few pieces of this puzzle. Does a level 9 minion die after one successful attack, as is true of the kobold minion? Does minion automatically mean "one hit kills" or does this scale with level?

If that's true, it seems like the party might actually have an easier time with a level 9 minion than with the super-kobold skirmisher.

We do have the stats for a level 6 minion, but unfortunately no XP value:

Vampire Spawn
Medium Natural Humanoid (Undead)
Level 6 Minion (Brute)
HP 10, Bloodied 5
AC 18, Fort 15, Ref 16, Will 15
Senses darkvision; Perception +4, Init +11, Spd 7
Immune poison, Resist nec 10, Weakness vulnerable radiant 5
Attacks: Melee Claw +11 vs AC; 3 (5 to Bloodied)
Group Attack +3 damage per additional vampire spawn (+5 to Bloodied)
Abilities: Regenerate 3
Skills: Stealth +11
Str 14 (+5), Con 14 (+5), Dex 16 (+6), Int 10 (+3), Wis 12 (+4), Cha 14 (+5)

So not all minions are auto-hit-kill, but close.

 

[Iron Sky]

My guess would be minions have 1/10 the hp of a normal(giving those kobold minions 3hp, which I don't think any attack the pre-mades can do won't match or exceed, so they just simplified). They also seem to do 1/4 the max damage of a creature of their type, with no strength bonus (based on the kobolds) and approx -1 to their defences (though we don't know exactly what a "base" kobold looks like or if there even is one).

 

[Racinante]

XP Engineering

My guess on XP for monsters and XP needed per level is:

Level	Standard	Elite   	Solo    	 XP Needed 
 1	    100 	    200 	     500 	      -   
 2 	    125 	    250 	     625 	   1,000 
 3 	    150 	    300 	     750 	   2,250 
 4	    175 	    350 	     875 	   3,750 
 5	    200 	    400 	   1,000 	   5,500 
 6	    250 	    500 	   1,250 	   7,500 
 7	    300 	    600 	   1,500 	  10,000 
 8	    350 	    700 	   1,750 	  13,000 
 9	    400 	    800 	   2,000 	  16,500 
10	    500 	  1,000 	   2,500 	  20,500 
11	    600 	  1,200 	   3,000 	  25,500 
12	    700 	  1,400 	   3,500 	  31,500 
13	    800 	  1,600 	   4,000 	  38,500 
14	  1,000 	  2,000 	   5,000 	  46,500 
15	  1,200 	  2,400 	   6,000 	  56,500 
16	  1,400 	  2,800 	   7,000 	  68,500 
17	  1,600 	  3,200 	   8,000 	  82,500 
18	  2,000 	  4,000 	  10,000 	  98,500 
19	  2,400 	  4,800 	  12,000 	 118,500 
20	  2,800 	  5,600 	  14,000 	 142,500 
21	  3,200 	  6,400 	  16,000 	 170,500 
22	  4,150 	  8,300 	  20,750 	 202,500 
23	  5,100 	 10,200 	  25,500 	 244,000 
24	  6,050 	 12,100 	  30,250 	 295,000 
25	  7,000 	 14,000 	  35,000 	 355,500 
26	  9,000 	 18,000 	  45,000 	 425,500 
27	 11,000 	 22,000 	  55,000 	 515,500 
28	 13,000 	 26,000 	  65,000 	 625,500 
29	 15,000 	 30,000 	  75,000 	 755,500 
30	 20,000 	 40,000 	 100,000 	 905,500

Based on the 23rd level encounter numbers, I believe that the Chull Elite 23rd level Soldier is worth 10,200 XP and not the previously discussed 16,200 or 18,700...