Monsters are more than their stats

[LostSoul]

What I need, what I'm paying for, what I want, are rules.

Specifically so I don't have to make stuff up. I'm a busy man, I'm not playing D&D to write a collaborative narrative, I'm playing it because it is a game of plot resolution. If it doesn't give me a plot to resolve, if it doesn't give me a way to resolve it, it's not giving me what I want to play.

You've got rules.

The DM says, "Okay, you've discovered that there is a succubus who's got the king wrapped around her finger. Skill challenge: find out a way to stop her."

That will resolve the situation.

Maybe the PCs decide to use that information to blackmail the succubus.
Maybe the PCs use the skill challenge to break into her bedchambers at night.
Maybe the PCs research in the library, and discover the Mirror of Pelor (any maybe it's the players who come up with the name - or maybe the DM ad libs and creates it there on the spot).
Maybe the PCs confront the King and empower him to break the enchantment.
Maybe the PCs seduce the succubus and have her charm a PC instead of the King.
Maybe the PCs socially devestate the succubus, and she has to leave town.

Or maybe they fail.

 

[hong]

Maybe the PCs seduce the succubus and have her charm a PC instead of the King.

^ I foresee HOURS of hilarity with this one.

 

[Lizard]

Dunno how this little statement relates to the rest of your rather insightful post, but this is just screaming for a not-so-witty World of Warcraft rebuke

Be careful with the matches...

If you want a game where the DM has not even a baseline rule for things and everything works as he wants it to work for a given plot and doesn't need to work the same way before or after, play a diceless game.

If you want a game where part of the fun/challenge of DMing is working within the rules -- if you feel, as I do, that the greatest obstacle to creativity is the *lack* of boundaries -- then play D&D/GURPS/Hero/BESM/Other 'traditional' games.

To expand on what I've said:
"Succubus can control people", with nothing more, gives me nothing to work with. No ideas, no plots, no gimmicks, no hooks. It's *boring*.

"Succubi can control one person absolutely, provided they speak to that person alone for at least five minutes a day"...now, THERE'S a plot hook. By giving a baseline, and knowing that baseline is the 'standard' for the world, I can do a lot with it. I can use it as written. I can decide that this particular succubi has used a ritual so that she only needs to talk with her slave one day a week, and so when the PCs cunningly plot to keep her away from the king and the king still doesn't get better, they decide she's not a succubus ater all. I can create weaker or stronger succubi. I can create a succubi who can control Cha bonus thralls. Perhaps most importantly, if I want to use someone else's content, I can be sure they're working from the same assumptions, and if they change them, they call them out clearly and explain why they were changed and what benefit is gained.

But a raw statement of general ability gives me nothing. Nada. Bupkis. I might as well just make my own monster from scratch. It turns all "control people" monsters into the same things. Succubi control people. Mind flayers control people. Aboleths control people. Vampire Lords control people. What allows you to create different plots from these creatures is differences in how they do it -- how many people? How long? How is the control maintained? How total is the control? If each one is distinct, each one breeds different stories. And, yes, I can make all of it up myself -- but then what am I spending 75 bucks for? Pretty pictures?

 

[pawsplay]

I'm not trying to be obtuse here -- but if you can make up your own rules, campaign background, and adventures, what is there left for you to buy?

I agree on the last two, but it's the rules that are the real pain in the neck to make. However, if you're able to make them up for free, then what does any edition of any RPG have to offer you?

Rules, campaign background, and adventures. The point is that I pay money, and in theory, I end up doing less work than if I do the whole thing from scratch myself. I don't need to spend $120 on books to be told, "Make something up." I can make stuff up for free. The value of an RPG is in all the things I don't have to make up for myself, or in the things it can inspire me to make up I wouldn't have otherwise.

This so-called succubus is a sorry case. She can't do anything.

 

[DandD]

There might be domination rituals. We never saw them for now, but might with future excerpts. These might be the 75 bucks you paid for.
<edited - lay off the personal attacks, please>
It's perhaps better to take some weeks off from that topic and return some weeks later to have a bigger picture.

 

[Godofredo]

In 4e, if the DM wants to have a succubus have the king under her control and rule the kingdom through proxy, the DM can do so, without needing the monster's statblock in the Monster Manual to back up that decision.

From what I can see of 4e, this is a huge shift from earlier thinking of D&D (especially 3e), where every little ability of a monster would have to be listed or it didn't exist. The primary purpose of the 4e rules and monster descriptions is to resolve challenges (primarily combats) with the PCs. What happens with NPCs offscreen is entirely up to the DM.

Dealing with situations like "how do we break the king out of the succubus's charm?" is in the province of the DM's invention. This is an adventure hook, that might lead to an epic quest ("You must find the lost Mirror of Pelor and show the king the succubus's reflection in it!") or a simple combat ("Kill the succubus. That'll work!"). It doesn't need to be detailed explicitly, although pointers might be given in the abilities or descriptive text.

Why have rules, then? For those face-to-face situations where hard-and-fast rules (for combat, especially) are required. However, you only need rules for those situations, not everything that doesn't concern the PCs... or that is part of setting up unique challenges for an adventure in any case.

At least, that's my impression of 4e. What do you think?

Cheers!

agree..100%

 

[hong]

If you want a game where the DM has not even a baseline rule for things and everything works as he wants it to work for a given plot and doesn't need to work the same way before or after, play a diceless game.

You have it exactly backwards. You have rules to decide how everything works, and they do not impose any given plot. This is the skill challenge part of it.

To expand on what I've said:
"Succubus can control people", with nothing more, gives me nothing to work with. No ideas, no plots, no gimmicks, no hooks. It's *boring*.

Pah. D&D does not exist in a vacuum (well, maybe it did for a while with that Great Wheel business and other idiosyncratic symmetry-based nonsense, but no more!). In the absence of rules you have plenty of source material from outside the game that can be used to help decide just how the succubus controls people.

"Succubi can control one person absolutely, provided they speak to that person alone for at least five minutes a day"...now, THERE'S a plot hook. By giving a baseline, and knowing that baseline is the 'standard' for the world, I can do a lot with it. I can use it as written. I can decide that this particular succubi has used a ritual so that she only needs to talk with her slave one day a week, and so when the PCs cunningly plot to keep her away from the king and the king still doesn't get better, they decide she's not a succubus ater all. I can create weaker or stronger succubi. I can create a succubi who can control Cha bonus thralls.

So, the important thing about a baseline is that you can ignore it. This must be a side effect of thinking too hard about fantasy.

Perhaps most importantly, if I want to use someone else's content, I can be sure they're working from the same assumptions, and if they change them, they call them out clearly and explain why they were changed and what benefit is gained.

It makes absolutely no difference in the world, whether or not there is this "baseline" of which you so lovingly speak. If the baseline is changed, then it will have to be explained. If the baseline is not changed, then it will probably be explained anyway. Besides, I thought you didn't want other writers designing your world for you? That's why you're ignoring it, right?

But a raw statement of general ability gives me nothing. Nada. Bupkis. I might as well just make my own monster from scratch. It turns all "control people" monsters into the same things. Succubi control people. Mind flayers control people. Aboleths control people. Vampire Lords control people. What allows you to create different plots from these creatures is differences in how they do it

And nothing stops you creating those differences.

-- how many people? How long? How is the control maintained? How total is the control? If each one is distinct, each one breeds different stories. And, yes, I can make all of it up myself -- but then what am I spending 75 bucks for? Pretty pictures?

You are getting lots of pretty pictures of the Nine Hells, the Feywild, the Shadowfell, and so on. Oh, and lots of pretty text too. It just happens to be text that is actually to be used in playing the game, as opposed to text that is to be ignored.

 

[WyzardWhately]

If I am, seriously, expected to put on my DM hat and simply fiat all the out of combat abilities of the monsters, I will turn around and not buy the game. I would consider it so incomplete as to be a failed RPG. I can deal with really ill-defined abilities in an RPG that has a generic conflict-resolution system, because then there is a system of rules in place to determine what happens, even if not everything prescribed beforehand. But this idea that I need to just DIY? Oh, goodness no. I buy games to have that done already. Also, it provides me with plot hooks. It also provides the *players* with the ability to make some of their own plot hooks, because it makes the world predictable enough that they can plan and take advantage of it.

Making the world predictable like that is something I place a high value on.

Now, the reason I sort of suspect it isn't all just "make it up yourself" is that the WotC people keep talking about building unique IP, through artwork, character types, etc. They want to build a really strong brand identity. It seems harder to do that if they handwave everything outside of a combat or skill challenge. So, my suspicion is that there is something more than what we've seen.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

If you want a game where the DM has not even a baseline rule for things and everything works as he wants it to work for a given plot and doesn't need to work the same way before or after, play a diceless game.

I think I rather try out 4E first. What you're describing has little to do with what most of us are interested. We want rule for "things" - like for combat, for social interaction, and such stuff.

We don't need rules for "plot-device" magic.

To expand on what I've said:
"Succubus can control people", with nothing more, gives me nothing to work with. No ideas, no plots, no gimmicks, no hooks. It's *boring*.

"Succubi can control one person absolutely, provided they speak to that person alone for at least five minutes a day"...now, THERE'S a plot hook. By giving a baseline, and knowing that baseline is the 'standard' for the world, I can do a lot with it. I can use it as written. I can decide that this particular succubi has used a ritual so that she only needs to talk with her slave one day a week, and so when the PCs cunningly plot to keep her away from the king and the king still doesn't get better, they decide she's not a succubus ater all. I can create weaker or stronger succubi. I can create a succubi who can control Cha bonus thralls. Perhaps most importantly, if I want to use someone else's content, I can be sure they're working from the same assumptions, and if they change them, they call them out clearly and explain why they were changed and what benefit is gained.

This is what the excerpt tells us on the Succubus.

Succubi tempt mortals into performing evil deeds, using their shapechanging abilities to appear as attractive men and women. Although seduction and betrayal are their forte, succubi are also practiced spies and assassins. Succubi serve more powerful devils as scouts, advisors, and even concubines. Because of their guile and shapechanging ability, they are frequently chosen to serve as infernal emissaries to important mortals

So they use seduction and betrayal. They typically don't seem to rely on magic. Probably because they want your soul, and it's a lot more rewarding to get it through seduction and betrayal then by simply snipping a finger.
Though in this case, there is also some crunch that gives us more. Succubi might use their Charm Kiss to do some work for them, but most likely after they have already "performed" their seduction. And once they get to the betrayal part, there is nothing our dear king can do against the Succubus (for 24 hours).

But a raw statement of general ability gives me nothing. Nada. Bupkis. I might as well just make my own monster from scratch. It turns all "control people" monsters into the same things. Succubi control people. Mind flayers control people. Aboleths control people. Vampire Lords control people. What allows you to create different plots from these creatures is differences in how they do it -- how many people? How long? How is the control maintained? How total is the control? If each one is distinct, each one breeds different stories. And, yes, I can make all of it up myself -- but then what am I spending 75 bucks for? Pretty pictures?

The raw statement gives you the plot hook. "How about a king controlled by a Succubus?" Questions coming up: "How does the Succubus do it?" and "What can the PCs do about it?" But the more important question is "How can the whole thing be made interesting?" If you just use Charm Person from the Succubus stat block, the solution is a little... bland. A dispel magic later, and the Charm wears off. If you had something more interesting to counter, this part could be a lot more entertaining - imagine a skill challenge to speak to the King in the first place, and a second skill challenge to complete the counter-ritual - the Wizard is mumbling arcane formulas, while the Rogue is busy talking with the King so he doesn't go away, the Cleric holding the Succubus at bay, and the Fighter talking down the guards.

And to your last question - I don't know what we'll spend our 70 Bucks (or rather 60 €uro in my case) for. I have an inkling of what it is, and pictures might be part of it. I don't expect to see a lot of blank pages, and instead predict a lot of crunch and fluff that will make for a good game.

 

[Carnivorous_Bean]

Well, considering that the minute description of the planes that was given in the Nine Hells fluff was vastly inspirational to me -- and I'm someone who's a fanatic for making stuff up -- shows that they've given some concrete proof of at a minimum inspirational background. Just the fact that individual planes aren't necessarily infinite any more is a very strong and concrete aid to storytelling.

The change of the Astral Plane's fluff to a sea-like setting is one example of constructive fluff, IMO -- the type of background stuff you're looking for. Before, it was basically a big nothingness, so all you could have happen there was, "you drift for a while looking at the pretty lights and then find a color pool that takes you where you want to go."

Now you can have an astral ship, hung with medallions to ward off evil and scorched by ancient elemental blasts, its sails held out by the bones of dragons made into spars, and the winds of a thousand worlds whispering in its rigging to bring echoes of places far away and distant in time to your ears, sailing through an 'ocean' far wilder and stranger than any earthly sea. Another ship appears -- is it a band of otherworldly pirates, the deadly outcast of many planes and worlds? Or will its crew bring you tidings of astral juggernauts haunting the astral river you were planning on navigating to your destination, requiring you to take another route through strange and uncharted pathways?

So, I wouldn't give up on the monsters just yet. The entries we've seen so far remind me of the entries in the SRD -- stripped down to the plain stats. I agree it's a mistake to assume there's more, because there may not be. But if you looked at the SRD stats, 3rd edition would look pretty fluff-poor, too.