D&D 5E Monsters as characters?

[The Grand User]

Sadly in their quest to simplify things WotC abandoned the practice from 3E that all creatures are build by the same rules and used a more video game design were everything not a PC, with some exceptions, are crated by a completely different set of rules or just rather arbitrary guidelines.

Sadly that means that playing monsters or anything WotC didn't deem to be appropriate rather hard. Better switch to 3E for that.

I actually don't have a problem with building regular PCs and monster PCs differently, as the goal isn't to build things the same way, but to have a comparable level of power after they're built. And even in 3E the only thing that was the same between PCs and monsters was that HD and the number calculations were the same, but not what abilities were appropriate.

I could see making a PC with using a monster stats as a base and adding some class abilities to fill it out. Maybe lower the HD a bit, apply the same Proficiency bonus as appropriate for the level you're aiming for, and a few other tweaks like that, and it should be easily playable with further levels from the class as normal.

 

[indemnity]

Don't overlook RP and equipment issues.

DMing a similar group of freaks, our group really missed the incremental upgrades from loot. Yes, could have been fluffed, but a dragon doesn't use a +1 sword. Laughs each time they found items they just couldn't use in their forms.

The team ended up so isolated that we are now working through a modified Kingmaker module from from Pathfinder as the players make an evil monster Kingdom. The novelty is wearing thin and soon we will start traditional characters again.

 

[Sunseeker]

..
Also, I made a 20-level class for dragon PCs which you may be interested in:
http://www.enworld.org/forum/showthread.php?438478-Dragon-Player-Characters

I do like, it provides a nice, standard advancement for the race/class and I generally agree with most of your findings regarding dragons in your thread over there. I have a dragon-centric campaign in the works and this fills a niche I've been scratching my head over for some time.

 

[Sunseeker]

Don't overlook RP and equipment issues.

DMing a similar group of freaks, our group really missed the incremental upgrades from loot. Yes, could have been fluffed, but a dragon doesn't use a +1 sword. Laughs each time they found items they just couldn't use in their forms.

My DM is a step ahead then! For as soon as I became a dragon, he very casually informed that we would be encountering folks in the near future who could craft items for a dragon, such as weapons and armor.

My group has been fairly terrible about managing loot, so we haven't been making much progress on that front anyway, most of our magical items are utility items though, so it's not a direct power buff.

 

[ExploderWizard]

Sadly in their quest to simplify things WotC abandoned the practice from 3E that all creatures are build by the same rules and used a more video game design were everything not a PC, with some exceptions, are crated by a completely different set of rules or just rather arbitrary guidelines.

Sadly that means that playing monsters or anything WotC didn't deem to be appropriate rather hard. Better switch to 3E for that.

[shakes cane]

Eh? We didn't have no fancy build rules or guidelines in OD&D and AD&D and we still had monster PCs and liked it! If you wanted to play a monster race then you worked it out with the rest of the group and came up with something agreeable.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

2) The DMG says, and quite reasonably too, that adding some PC levels to certain monsters doesn't appreciably improve the monster. Adding 5 levels of wizard to a dragon is virtually meaningless, while adding those same levels to a kobold is a big change. This is an important thing to consider when deciding if a character should have to count its monstrous race as part of its levels.

The DMG says this, but it's wrong. A dragon that can cast Shield, Misty Step, Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, and Hypnotic Pattern is twice as nasty as a vanilla dragon.

 

[MechaPilot]

The DMG says this, but it's wrong. A dragon that can cast Shield, Misty Step, Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, and Hypnotic Pattern is twice as nasty as a vanilla dragon.

Under the right circumstances, possibly. However, a dragon typically has far more effective things to do to a party of PCs or a single PC with its action than casting a low level spell.

It's also worth noting that invisibility is not nearly so handy for a massive creature as it is for a human. A party is very likely to hear a dragon stomping around even when it's trying to move silently, and the same is true of the beating of the wings. Gliding in while invisible would work, but now we are making assumptions about how much room the dragon has to make this invisible action from.

 

[Sunseeker]

The DMG says this, but it's wrong. A dragon that can cast Shield, Misty Step, Invisibility, Expeditious Retreat, and Hypnotic Pattern is twice as nasty as a vanilla dragon.

Using the variant rule, the dragon can already do that. So giving them additional spellcaster levels does not substantially improve their spellcasting ability (Spells per day=cha mod, maximum spell level=CR/3, ignore material components). The rule is unfortunately not any more specific than that. which could lead to wide interpretations of either a dragon can cast ANY spell, but only up to 4 of them a day or it only knows 4 spells, which it can cast any of them up to 4 times per day. It also does not specify which spell list they can or cannot cast from.

So by the variant rules already, a dragon can potentially know every spell of potency up to 1/3rd its CR. Frightening Presence+Cloudkill+Insect Plague+any other combination of control or offensive AOEs and yeah, there goes the party.

Other class features, such as maneuvers, rages or anything that's not a spell makes a significant difference.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

Using the variant rule, the dragon can already do that. So giving them additional spellcaster levels does not substantially improve their spellcasting ability (Spells per day=cha mod, maximum spell level=CR/3, ignore material components). The rule is unfortunately not any more specific than that. which could lead to wide interpretations of either a dragon can cast ANY spell, but only up to 4 of them a day or it only knows 4 spells, which it can cast any of them up to 4 times per day. It also does not specify which spell list they can or cannot cast from.

Well, yeah, the bolded part is kind of my point. The variant rule also substantially increases the deadliness of a dragon in exactly the same way as adding wizard/druid/cleric/bard levels. According to the rules, it doesn't change the dragon's CR, which simply illustrates that CR is bonkers and should be largely ignored except when it's time to hand out kill XP. But no one should look at the rule that says "adding wizard levels to a dragon doesn't change its CR" and conclude therefrom that adding wizard levels to a dragon doesn't make it more capable/deadly, because that would be false.

BTW, now I feel this strange urge to make a dragon bard NPC.

 

[Sunseeker]

Well, yeah, the bolded part is kind of my point. The variant rule also substantially increases the deadliness of a dragon in exactly the same way as adding wizard/druid/cleric/bard levels. According to the rules, it doesn't change the dragon's CR, which simply illustrates that CR is bonkers and should be largely ignored except when it's time to hand out kill XP. But no one should look at the rule that says "adding wizard levels to a dragon doesn't change its CR" and conclude therefrom that adding wizard levels to a dragon doesn't make it more capable/deadly, because that would be false.

BTW, now I feel this strange urge to make a dragon bard NPC.

If you haven't already, read the thread in 77IM's downloadable dragon-classes document. It addresses a lot of these points, the biggest one seeming to be that the CR for a dragon assumes a lot of things. Assumes spellcasting, assumes a lair, likely even assumed minions (since the rules explicitly state that if additional monsters are well below the other challenge ratings, their CR is to be ignored in the calculations). As a solo, a dragon isn't that great of a monster.

I think as well that it's a question of "how much?". If a dragon gains two levels of wizard....that's not going to do very much for the dragon. If the dragon gains 10 levels of wizard, or shoot any class, that's going to be a big deal.