Monsters - How to best run them?

[Zaukrie]

So, with marks from fighters, Avengers' powers, swordmages teleporting all around and hitting for free - how does a DM run monsters so they don't get decimated?

Is my only real option to run monsters of a higher level than the PCs (higher than the DMG would recommend).

The players now have so much power to retaliate, and most monsters have few powers other than hit back once a round.

I can't believe I'm posting this, as once a session someone drops to zero....

 

[Wolfwood2]

So, with marks from fighters, Avengers' powers, swordmages teleporting all around and hitting for free - how does a DM run monsters so they don't get decimated?

The monsters are supposed to lose, after all.

 

[Obryn]

So, with marks from fighters, Avengers' powers, swordmages teleporting all around and hitting for free - how does a DM run monsters so they don't get decimated?

Is my only real option to run monsters of a higher level than the PCs (higher than the DMG would recommend).

The players now have so much power to retaliate, and most monsters have few powers other than hit back once a round.

I can't believe I'm posting this, as once a session someone drops to zero....

It kinda depends on the monsters, to be honest.

Also, it depends on the characters' levels.

Can you give some examples of what you're talking about?

-O

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

So, with marks from fighters, Avengers' powers, swordmages teleporting all around and hitting for free - how does a DM run monsters so they don't get decimated?

Is my only real option to run monsters of a higher level than the PCs (higher than the DMG would recommend).

The players now have so much power to retaliate, and most monsters have few powers other than hit back once a round.

I can't believe I'm posting this, as once a session someone drops to zero....

I have 8 players in my game, so I feel your pain as my monster get routinely slaughtered in short order with the players looking like they're not taking a scratch.

The point is, though, they are. Slowly but surely, in every fight, they're taking a bit of damage. 4e is great for letting them go on dungeon crawls or extended fights, taking on foes over a long period of time before facing a harder encounter at the end. So my advice is this - don't worry if each fight seems fairly easy for them. Just keep them fighting on and after three or four encounters you'll find that suddenly they're running out of healing surges and daily powers. THAT'S when the paranoia and worry starts to set in, and when the players start feeling afraid for their lives.

Making each encounter harder just means that they'll end up taking extending rests more often, and approaching each fight at full strength. Which is, to my mind, a bit dull.

 

[Mengu]

I wish I had this problem of monsters getting slaughtered. My PC's are typically scraping by most encounters, even encounters that are level or level+1.

I think there is a lot to be said about the setting of an encounter which will make it easy or difficult for the players.

I don't think you need to pit more difficult encounters against the PC's to actually challenge them. Sometimes a bit of rough terrain to prevent the PC's from effectively flanking, or a numerical advantage to the monsters so they can out flank the PC's can make all the difference you need.

When designing an encounter, expend a majority of your XP budget on things that will give the monsters an edge. Then a minority can go into setting the tone of the encounter. The fact that you have a big boss fight doesn't mean you need to spend your budget on a level+4 elite brute. Your boss could easily be a level+2 artillery, which would leave you with plenty of XP to lay down a devious trap filled with dangerous monsters, and a few soldiers who can take a hit for your boss.

I think good encounter design plus using intelligent monster tactics goes a long way for keeping PC's challenged and entertained.

 

[Kask]

The best way (which has worked since the beginning of time) is to decide how tough you want the encounter to be and populate it accordingly. Once you are familiar with the party & monsters this becomes fairly easy.

 

[Zaukrie]

Sure, some examples.

The swordmage marks an enemy. The Swordmage gets trapped by a trap. The marked enemy attacks who at that point? If the enemy attacks the already trapped swordmage, they get little benefit. If they attack someone else, the swordmage teleports out of the trap and gets a free attack.

In general, I struggle with marks and I imagine the new avenger doohickey will be the same. If you are a monster, what do you do? The PCs really seem to have the opportunity to dictate the fight more than the monsters do, as few of them can mark. Few of them have the synergies available to them that a well rounded party does. As someone that used to be pretty good at DDM (the tactical game), I should be able to run the monsters so they are more than just a lot of hitpoints to slog through, but I often feel the monsters' choices are very constrained.

Like I said, though, it's not like the PCs aren't consuming their resources. One fight had three of the five down right away recently, and one character in teh group almost always is down to zero by most fights. But, it rarely seems like that is due to monster tactics, but due to monster hitpoints and AC.

 

[Obryn]

The swordmage marks an enemy. The Swordmage gets trapped by a trap. The marked enemy attacks who at that point? If the enemy attacks the already trapped swordmage, they get little benefit. If they attack someone else, the swordmage teleports out of the trap and gets a free attack.

Well, honestly, that's what the swordmage does. And yes, their insane Aegis marking can get very, very frustrating. Really, though, it's all they get - their attacks are far from overwhelming. In fact, they usually do less damage than any other class in the game. They're highly-mobile, low-damage defenders. And traps like that just won't stop 'em for long.

Remember it has a range of 10, though, so if the fight somehow gets 10 away from the Swordmage, that aegis won't do a thing.

(And if you're frustrated with Aegis of Assault, you should be thankful your resident swordmage didn't pick up Aegis of Shielding. It's a hugely effective way to completely hose a creature - especially with swordmages' ultra-high AC.)

In general, I struggle with marks and I imagine the new avenger doohickey will be the same. If you are a monster, what do you do? The PCs really seem to have the opportunity to dictate the fight more than the monsters do, as few of them can mark. Few of them have the synergies available to them that a well rounded party does. As someone that used to be pretty good at DDM (the tactical game), I should be able to run the monsters so they are more than just a lot of hitpoints to slog through, but I often feel the monsters' choices are very constrained.

Their choices are certainly constrained if they are stuck working in a vacuum or a bare stone room. Interesting environments are almost a must for 4e games... It doesn't take much effort to throw a few braziers, a little difficult terrain, and maybe a chasm or two on the battlefield.

You can do some great stuff by looking for creatures that work well together. Hobgoblins are probably the best example of this that I can think of - they tend to get insane when you put enough of them together. The Archers get a ping-ponging combat bonus, the Soldiers get huge AC boosts, and everyone moves well in formation.

Have you checked out Pyramid of Shadows? It's got a lot of interesting terrain and encounters. I'll note that it's frustrating since most of the terrain only hoses the PCs, but still it's a good starting point.

-O

 

[Zaukrie]

Yup, terrain is more important than ever. Which is one reason I am now making my own 3D terrain. It helps up the creativity on both sides of the battle (I think it does, the one time I didn't have cool terrain the players seemed disappointed).

I find it fascinating we have pages and pages of people discussing a simple throw away statement from the designers, or about edition wars, but discussions about how to actually play/DM the game rarely get more than 2-4 pages before they die.

 

[Gort]

It's not rocket science. If the players trounce 4 enemies of equal level without any trouble at all, try 6 enemies next time.

Or target their weak defenses - reflex tends to be somewhat low on fighters, for instance.