Monsters not dishing enough damage

[KarinsDad]

AC 22 at level 3 = +1 Fullplate + Heavy Shield + Level bonus

+11 attack bonus at level 3: +5 from stat, +1 expertise +3 weapon prof. +1 level +1 from magic weapon

A +12 attack bonus seems a bit fishy? You can use at-will powers like brash strike to get a +13 attack bonus at level 13 as a fighter for instance...

I think you meant +1 weapon talent, not +1 expertise.

A 3rd level Fighter with an 18 or 19 Str could get +12 with brash strike. a 3rd level Battlerager or Tempest would need a 20 Str (or a +2 weapon, which btw is possible with a level 2 or 3 parcel).

 

[eamon]

AC 22 at level 3 = +1 Fullplate + Heavy Shield + Level bonus

+11 attack bonus at level 3: +5 from stat, +1 expertise +3 weapon prof. +1 level +1 from magic weapon

A +12 attack bonus seems a bit fishy? You can use at-will powers like brash strike to get a +13 attack bonus at level 13 as a fighter for instance...

Oh, it's possible all right - but if it's standard in your group there's something weird going on. A weapon talent fighter could have both 22AC and +12 to hit - but it's not very likely, and is certainly not going to be representative of any kind "normal" to-hit and AC, so comparing these numbers to average monster defenses is quite fishy.

The point being, the perceived imbalance is either due to an unrepresentative sample of the party, or the party is somehow borked. +12 to hit and 22 AC are abnormally high and no legal (and balanced) party can reach those numbers on average. And even with a +12 to hit and 22AC, a bit of CA will mean that the uber-tank is still quite hittable - even if it'll take more hits to take him down.

 

[sfedi]

A 20 Starting stat comes at the cost of very low NADs.

Expertise isn't needed until level 5.

Seems to me that's an Expertise Feat problem and an extreme optimization which cost isn't taken into account.

 

[UngeheuerLich]

ok, AC 22, to hit +12 means feats spent on expertise and full plate proficiency. Str 18 and constitution 15, so this means that this fighter has only average battlefield control (+10 to it is easy to achieve and wis will make up for the difference) and it has an underwhelming will defense. and a fantastic -4 to endurance and athletics and acrobatic checks.

Grapple the fighter and attack him vs will defense and you will see him go down fast. (A daze attack which targets will should be a good option)

The fighter with 22 AC and +12 to hit is a monster against an even level enemy, but as encounters are designed, thats intentional.

PC´s are rather on the power level of elite monsters of their level or a monster of level +4. (depending on the kind of attacks or if its a brute or not, one performs better than the other)

so, what does it mean?

22 AC vs a single level 7 monster seems like a 50 - 50 encounter where the PC goes nova with dailies, encounter and utility powers and action point.

and on average we are looking at an attack bonus of +12 and AC 21 and about 100 hp and damage average of 10 for standard attacks.

And this monster doesn´t trigger fighters extra atacks because it focusses the fighter. I bet this will always be an encounter which depends on the dice, no matter which level 7 monster you chose. But chosing the right monster you will take the fighter down with ease.

edit: I don´t think there is anything wrong wih this build and i believe it is a viable route, if you like such over"optimized" characters. But optimization has its costs and its merits, and someone built for tanking and doing damage should not be punished. But I also don´t think it is a route i would take.

starting scores need to be at least 18,13,10,10,13,8 with goliath or warforged race and maybe this is the best distribution, and a very viable for the epic tier of a fighter, but later lacking some punch, because a lot of shield feats are unavailable and also heavy blade feats are unavailable too. Maybe you can put the 13 on dex instead of wis, or use 11,12 to get access to better feats, but then you have an even bigger hole in your defenses. And this is will.

 

[Trevelyan]

Just a crazy idea here, but in general individual encounters are never that challenging. My party has fought a Level +8 encounter as the fourth encounter of the day and we survived. But far more challenging were the level +4 encounter we faced as the 7th encounter of the day, and the level +3 encounter we faced as the 8th encounter of the day. Perhaps the aim, if you want to make the players sweat, is to give them a reason to keep going for longer than they would like, and not to let them rest when they want to.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Yeah, you can crank your to-hit and AC but that's fine. The character is going to be WEAK in every other respect. Bad holes in NADs, poor skill bonuses, etc. Of course it will seem great as long as the DM makes the mistake of simply throwing melee monsters at the party. Throw in a nice controller that targets will, make the party do some interesting skill challenges, design encounters which demand serious mobility from the defenders, etc. All of a sudden they'll be paying for that level of specialization.

A more balanced defender build is likely to be more like +11 and 21 AC at level 6 or so. They'll be hitting level equal monsters typically without too much trouble, but at the same time the monster is going to be hitting back pretty well too.

 

[Blackbrrd]

Yeah, you can crank your to-hit and AC but that's fine. The character is going to be WEAK in every other respect. Bad holes in NADs, poor skill bonuses, etc. Of course it will seem great as long as the DM makes the mistake of simply throwing melee monsters at the party. Throw in a nice controller that targets will, make the party do some interesting skill challenges, design encounters which demand serious mobility from the defenders, etc. All of a sudden they'll be paying for that level of specialization.

A more balanced defender build is likely to be more like +11 and 21 AC at level 6 or so. They'll be hitting level equal monsters typically without too much trouble, but at the same time the monster is going to be hitting back pretty well too.

Now I really don't agree with a balanced defender having 21 AC. The worst case would be a Battlevigor Fighter in chainmail. He would have +6 from armor +1 from enhancement +2 from a heavy shield +3 from level for a total of AC 22. A typical Fighter would have scale mail and AC 23 and a typical Paladin would have plate mail and AC 24.

Regarding the to-hit, a proficiency +3 weapon +1 enhancement +3 from level and +4 from stat gives +11, so yeah I can agree to that.

A lot of attacks target AC early on, but the monsters gain more versatility later on in the game.

A defender with a good to-hit rating makes him more of a credible threat instead of something you beat at because it stands in the way. The Fighters mark's efficiency is quite directly linked to the to hit rating and damage rating of the character. Sacrificing these to boost a single bad defense isn't something I would do.

My design philosophy is to make a character that plays to his strength's and not sacrificing them for something that comes up every two-three encounters.

 

[abyssaldeath]

oops look away. nothing to see here.