Monsters that have been degraded over time that need fixing

[billd91]

Level drain removalwas one of the best things that happened to the game. It was stupid, arbitrary and random and generally was a "screw you" to fighters and other melee types while the casters sat back and increased the already idiotic power divide. Good riddance.

Can't agree with that in the slightest. It's just got to be the right level drain. I like Pathfinder's take on it. No levels permanently lost, but negative levels and their penalties may persist.

 

[Zaukrie]

I'd say any solo monster that can't shake off effects is too watered down in 4E. I like what they did with Titans, that was good fluff.

 

[Herschel]

Can't agree with that in the slightest. It's just got to be the right level drain. I like Pathfinder's take on it. No levels permanently lost, but negative levels and their penalties may persist.

I don't have a problem with penalties coming in to play at times but permanent level drain was terrible. Restoration magic, if you could get it, was rare and hard to come by. End of encounter or end-of-day (or end-of-three-days / milestones / whatever with raise/res in 4E) isn't a deal breaker if the effect is an inconvenience and not dibilitating.

The other problem with level drain as it was is that newer characters are much more comploex and in many situations there's a good deal of work in "leveling down".

 

[foolish_mortals]

I didn't have to think about it too much but I still think having fire elementals being 100% immune to fire and fire based attacks would be good. Not 0 immunity of 25 DR but total. Same with Efreeti.

foolish_mortals

 

[unan oranis]

level draining monsters.

They were the most feared monsters.

edit: I'm scared of them

 

[CM]

While I am a fan of 4e, I do think that it may have gone a bit too far in watering down some of the unique and flavorful monster abilities of the past. I'm in favor of lethality dials for certain creatures: Perhaps a 4e-style less-lethal version that takes 2 or 3 failed saves or successful enemy attacks in order to affect a character with a power, and a "classic" version that perhaps takes only 1 or 2 failed saves or successful enemy attacks. The creature could have a split "challenge rating" (for lack of a better term) or XP value: one for its less-lethal version and one for its more-lethal version. In this way encounters that use the less-lethal version could be increased in difficulty to match the challenge of the more-lethal version by addition of more enemies (minions?) or harsher terrain effects if desired. You could even use both types in the same encounter, with the more-lethal version representing the leader/elder enemy and the less-lethal types its subordinates.

 

[Zireael]

What else got watered down? Mind flayers. Holy **** scary in AD&D (Int drain), a little bit less scary in 3e, and watered down in 4e.

Drow. Total evil enigma in OGB, then they went to become optional player race in AD&D, player race in 3e FR (and got played a lot). The mystery disappeared somewhere along the way. And let's not speak about the 4e, which nerfed both the fluff and the stats.

 

[Greg K]

2. Balors & Pit Fiends: These are not epic monsters. Orcus and Dispater are Epic demons and devils. Balors and Pit Fiends should be statted in and around the mid-high Paragon Tier.

I might be remembering wrong, but I thought, back in 1e or 2e, it was stated that some individual Pit Fiends rivaled, in power, some of the individual layer rulers in Hell.

 

[avin]

Yugoloths must be back and Ultroloth put on pair with Balors and Pit Fiends.

Late 4E, MM3 IIRC, bring back pure elementals. I think pure elementals need to appear first. Maybe later some hybrids.

I would disagree about level drain monsters... yes, they scare people, but level drain was a pain in 3E... :/

 

[Greg K]

I would disagree about level drain monsters... yes, they scare people, but level drain was a pain in 3E... :/

I have never been a fan of Level Drain. I was glad to see it go and hope it stays gone.