Monsters that have been degraded over time that need fixing

[Wormwood]

I think I'd add Green Slime to the list. The last time I looked they'd downgraded the wonderful monster to a trap. A trap I tell you!

Green Slime can't move, think, or in any way act upon its environment. It simply damages you if you blunder into it.

Any creature you can completely nullify by taking a 5-foot step away from is a trap (or hazard).

 

[foolish_mortals]

What else got watered down? Mind flayers. Holy **** scary in AD&D (Int drain), a little bit less scary in 3e, and watered down in 4e.

Drow. Total evil enigma in OGB, then they went to become optional player race in AD&D, player race in 3e FR (and got played a lot). The mystery disappeared somewhere along the way. And let's not speak about the 4e, which nerfed both the fluff and the stats.

this is a good point. Drow started out as a shock, these evil elfs with all this unknown scary spells and super powerful underdark weapons. Now they've become these guys that seem to walk the street in your local fantasy setting. I'm not sure why that happened.

foolish_mortals

 

[foolish_mortals]

Green Slime can't move, think, or in any way act upon its environment. It simply damages you if you blunder into it.

Any creature you can completely nullify by taking a 5-foot step away from is a trap (or hazard).

that's the default green slime. When you have a variant than can do it what's a gm to do? untrap it and give it stats? Better to treat a creature as a creature.

foolish_mortals

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hey Greg K!

I might be remembering wrong, but I thought, back in 1e or 2e, it was stated that some individual Pit Fiends rivaled, in power, some of the individual layer rulers in Hell.

Not exactly.

It was stated that some of the more powerful Pit Fiends were in fact Dukes of Hell in the service of the Archdukes.

However, there was an underlying conceit that these Dukes were more powerful than typical Pit Fiends. For one thing both Asmodeus and Mephistopheles were noted as having multiple 'Companies' of Pit Fiends in their ranks.

Pit Fiend
1E = 13 HD, 2E = 13 HD, 3E = 20 HD, 4E = Level 26

Balor
1E = 8+8 HD, 2E = 13 HD, 3E = 20 HD, 4E = Level 27

It just seems to me that they were forced into the epic tier simply to pad that tier out, rather than because they are epic monsters in their own right. Of course that begs the question what IS an epic monster, and there is no right or wrong answer there. But what we do know is that they definately were not 'epic' monsters in 3rd Edition nor were they especially powerful in 1st or 2nd Edition.

So adding them to the epic tier in 4E had a number of knock on effects. Firstly it meant that most of the 'actual' epic demons and devils almost got 'priced' out of the game and were left to the late 20's early 30s.

So instead of the epic tier being about battling demon princes, archdukes, evil deities and primordials, it became about battling maybe one of those, once you got to about Level 30. While between Levels 21-29 you just fight a bunch of stooges. It totally devalued the whole epic experience.

The epic tier should be about world-shaking events that can change the planet virtually every session. The epic tier should not be about an 80 encounter slog to get to Orcus. Orcus should be one of the first epic tier adversaries a party faces, not the last.

If they ever do an epic tier book for 5E it should not load all the cool stuff at the back end. It should be up front and in your face from encounter #1 at 21st-level. The monsters need to reflect this.

 

[foolish_mortals]

I never got why Balors had 8+8 HP in 1rst. There were only supposed to be 6 of them and yet they were way below Pit Fiends in HP. Not sure what would happen if I put a 1rst Pit Fiend against a Balor. I'd expect the Pit Fiend to win just by looking at the HP. But I could be wrong. Lolth only had 66 hp but had -10 AC and could heal 3 times a day. That changes the game a little.

foolish_mortals

 

[billd91]

this is a good point. Drow started out as a shock, these evil elfs with all this unknown scary spells and super powerful underdark weapons. Now they've become these guys that seem to walk the street in your local fantasy setting. I'm not sure why that happened.

foolish_mortals

Because they were so kewl! They were the new shiny (which is odd because they were actually pretty dusky). They could do neat stuff, they were wicked, any good ones were naturally angsty, what wasn't to love?

And so they got overused by tables all over the place, which is why if a player asks if he can play one in a surface campaign I politely but firmly say, "No."

 

[unan oranis]

I have never been a fan of Level Drain. I was glad to see it go and hope it stays gone.

What about as an option? A rule for how to de-level could be useful for a lot of stuff, not just level draining monsters.

I think they're a bit whacked out, but theres something to be said for monsters that the players consider worse than lethal...

 

[foolish_mortals]

or maybe a random energy drain effect that would include level drain as a possibility. Another option is that they can scale up the energy drain according to level of the monster. Vampires drain a level with a hit, a skeleton saps yer intelligence with a hit.

foolish_mortals

 

[avin]

So, nobody is going to mention 4E's trolls appearance?

 

[Wormwood]

So, nobody is going to mention 4E's trolls appearance?

Okay, I'll start. They look AWESOME.