Monsters with spell lists is not a good sign

Ahnehnois

First Post
I'm going to apologize for stomping all over you here, but I think you said something that does need a bit of stomping on. It sounds good (because who is against 'excellence'), but it is realistically a fairly pernicious trap.
Okay.

The productivity tanking minutia of cross-referencing rules, building monsters out with templates, or applying character classes does massive damage to most playgroups by making life hell for the DM. It is generally bad for the game as a whole.
It is not clear to me whether or not you are a DM. In any case, you do not speak for all of us. Preparing monsters and NPCs is the primary form of preparation I do. I would struggle to run a game without a small library of stats that I made myself. And I don't find it excessively time-consuming, because I know the rules and I work fast. If I wanted, I could limit the sources that I used (instead of referencing dozens of books) and do it even faster. If I needed to, I could buy premade stats from various sources (though I personally wouldn't),

Moreover, PF has done something rather nice in creating simplified templates that are easy to apply quickly, which addresses exactly this issue. It shouldn't be a time-consuming process.

Average is better than 'above average' when average has four times the productivity because they implement a fast and serviceable solution to solve their task and then moves on to solve the next problem (or three) instead of piddling around gold-plating everything the work on because they want to be 'above average'.
A monster isn't a task. It is a character in the story. A more interesting monster makes for a more interesting story (up to the point where the monster detracts from the story because the DM is showboating). An 'average' monster is not worth the game time for me that I would spend running it. If I'm going to spend time out of my busy life to fight a D&D battle, it had better be more interesting than mowing down some orcs straight out of the monster manual.

Using easy to use low work stat blocks for 'average' monsters allows a DM to spend very little time building monsters, and thereby have more time to work on the rest of the adventure. A full system constructed of average sub-systems will stomp all over a partial system with a handful of gold-plated features. This holds true for an adventure.
I prodoundly disagree with this sentiment. Quality trumps quantity every time. If the DM has read a monster entry, picked all of that monster's skills/feats/etc., and had substantive thoughts regarding that monster beforehand, he can use it much more intelligently.

Moreover, as I alluded to above, what else is there to work on? There is campaign prep, getting the setting ready and such, but I don't know what else there is to spend time on outside the game once that's done, and that's mostly done before the 1st session. D&D is primarily an improvisational game. Looking at published adventures, I can't imagine why a DM would waste time creating that much information in advance. D&D rules are mostly about representing living creatures through character stats; it follows that most prep should take the form of character stats of some sort.

All of this reasoning misses the real problems with using monster stat blocks as written. If a monster entry says for example "8 HD, Advancement: 9-24 HD" I would assume that even if distribution is not even across that level range, less than 10% of that species has the basic 8 HD. Similarly, I assume that essentially none of them have the average ability array, or have chosen the average feats or skills. I also assume that every monster who is eligible to take class levels will if it lives long enough. Why wouldn't it? How many level 1 human commoners with all 10's and 11's are there in the world? Saying that any creature is 'average' is pretty demeaning to that creature and it is a reductionistic way of thinking.

Beyond the purely philosopical backing, the reason to change monster stats to surprise the PCs; many players are quite familiar with the monster manual. It's not good if the player knows the basic stats of whatever he's fighting before the battle starts. It also allows for a more tactically engaging game, because more of the rulebooks comes into play.

Life is too short to start over-ambitious projects that never get finished.
It sure is.

However, I wouldn't blame any failure in this regard on the size of the monster stat blocks or the amount of prep a DM needs to do. You can run an improv game and modify stats on the fly if you need to. Or you can sit down and try to create an epic. It's up to the DM to do these things, and to know what the parameters of his own time are. It is not up to the game writers to assume those parameters, because they are quite variable. It is up to them to make a flexible set of rules that everyone can use.

4E monster blocks were designed that way for valid reasons. Extremely valid reasons.
As always, feel free to play the game of your choice.

But also remember that we are in the 5e forum, and 5e is being designed for many reasons. Extremely valid reasons. Customizability is one of the major goals; and monsters should be easier to customize than in previous editions, not harder.
 

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Ahnehnois

First Post
Yes. I routinely do this.
Well, okay. But if you talk ablout monster stat blocks not being usable during play (as some have in this thread), to me this is like saying that you don't cook and walking into a grocery store and complaining that the food is broken because you can't eat it right away.

You would never expect to read the entry for "elf" or "fighter" in the PHB and be able to run a character without doing any character creation. It seems very unnatural to me that some people expect that out of their monsters. If anything, a monster stat block should look more like a mix of race and class information, because it serves the same purpose. It is a character creation tool.

Example stat blocks are fine, but I hate paying for stat blocks in my books when I can write better ones myself. I'd rather see the "Orc Warrior 1", "Orc Shaman", and "Orc Warlord" published separately for people who use that sort of thing, rather than clogging up the core monster manual.
 

Doug McCrae

Legend
D&D has, for most of its history, had magic items in the DMG and monster powers, in the form of spell-like abilities, in the PHB.

That's rather a weird way of doing it. I would think monsters should be more mysterious than magic items, not less so.
 



Dornam

First Post
Monsters are adversaries. Dumbing them down for the sake of easy to run combat means making them mere loot bags.

In my book a powerful Lich Wizard should have it's plethora of spells and not just 3-4 combat powers and thats it.

D&D should happen outside of combat as well, 4e forgot that!
 

Dausuul

Legend
To reiterate above:

The only monsters in the playtest which have spell lists are actual honest-to-Demogorgon spellcasters. They are NPC human clerics. All other monsters have powers spelled out in full in the statblock, 4E-style.
 

vagabundo

Adventurer
To reiterate above:

The only monsters in the playtest which have spell lists are actual honest-to-Demogorgon spellcasters. They are NPC human clerics. All other monsters have powers spelled out in full in the statblock, 4E-style.

I still remember statting a bunch of 6th level Cult of the Dragon wizards for my FR game in 3e <shudder>. I hate that kind of fiddly admin. I know there are people that love stating spellcasters out, but having to memorise all the spells or make a huge pages of notes - 6th level wizards get a lot of spells - is my biggest problem with older versions of the game.

In the end half of them got chopped up before they could get off two spells and the beholder who also had spell effects only lasted one round.

Three hours of prep, took maybe an hour of game time.

I know that only the NPC spellcasters have these lists (so far), but I don't think it is unreasonable for us to shout out about it. I'd leave in the option for people who want to spend the time hand crafting the numbers and spell lists for their NPCs and just give the rest of us an easier, 4e type, solution.
 
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avin

First Post
Spell lists are a good thing, and it's really cool to see them back. Like others, I found spells easy as heck to memorize and they required -much- less time to use IMO versus a hundred fiddly, mildly different powers in 4e in monster stat blocks. I'd rather not backslide to 4e's take on things.

I usually agree with your opinions. On this I disagree. If there's one thing in 4E that I really like is how monsters are presented.

Being forced to read PHB for every little detail on a spell list in a monster sheet is something I consider a total waste of my time. I just don't have the time.

In 4th edition I just open the monster sheet and start DMing.

My memory is crap in these Internet days...
 

Kinak

First Post
Monsters following the same rules as PCs would be even more awesome in my opinion.
Did you build a lot of monsters for 3e?

I don't mean that as "clearly you didn't play 3e," I know some people really enjoyed building monsters for it. I'm just curious because I thought building them with PC rules was a good idea, then became disabused of the notion once I tried to use it in practice.

Cheers!
Kinak
 

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