Monte Cook reviews 3.5

Oddly, people still play 1e. :rolleyes:

Dr_Rictus said:


This is perhaps the single most commonly-repeated untrue statement about the revision. WotC is ceasing to support version 3.0. I expect the vast majority of third-party d20 publishers to do likewise, and frankly there are very few of them out there in the first place whose product quality I trust anyway (Monte's imprint being one of them).

While I am willing to believe that this is not true for everyone, I for one require support materials to fit D&D into my busy schedule. Therefore, if I prefer to play 3.0, I most certainly am harmed by their lack of support, since my ability to play the game is seriously impaired. Monte addresses this fact directly in his commentary. 3.5 is now the D&D that's available.
 

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Henry said:
I may be an aberrant case, but it only took me and my players a few weeks to get the basics to 3E down back in 2000, and 3 to 4 months to get fluent in it.

Sure, but I think Monte makes a very insightful point about this. Any change should either be incremental, so that your old knowledge remains essentially valid, or large enough that you know that very little of your old knowledge applies (which is what happened between 2.0 and 3.0). Somewhere in between, you get a change where you are compelled to rely upon your old knowledge, but find that it often betrays you.
 

Dr_Rictus said:


This is perhaps the single most commonly-repeated untrue statement about the revision. WotC is ceasing to support version 3.0. I expect the vast majority of third-party d20 publishers to do likewise, and frankly there are very few of them out there in the first place whose product quality I trust anyway (Monte's imprint being one of them).

While I am willing to believe that this is not true for everyone, I for one require support materials to fit D&D into my busy schedule. Therefore, if I prefer to play 3.0, I most certainly am harmed by their lack of support, since my ability to play the game is seriously impaired. Monte addresses this fact directly in his commentary. 3.5 is now the D&D that's available.

I still claim it is 100% true.

A) I already have everything I will ever need to play more game time than I possibly can.

B) Monte says AU is both 3E and 3.5 compatible. I 100% believe that. Because 99% of the time the revision does not matter.

3.5 is now the D&D. So? People still play 1e. People will likewise still be able to play 3E.
 

* Facing (now called space) is now always square. In order to facilitate miniatures play (apparently), horses are no longer 5 feet by 10 feet when you put them on a grid, they're a 10-foot square. The horse has to "squeeze" to get through a 5 foot wide space. Three 9-foot-tall ogres require a 30-foot-wide passage in order to walk abreast. D&D, with its already abstract combat system, did not need this extra layer of abstraction. Not to mention the fact that this changes game play in strange ways, such as how many of the charging ogres you can get with your fireball spell.

This is interesting ... I didn't know ogres couldn't "overlap".
OTOH square facing means it's possible for a horse or other long creature to turn around properly, actually make AoOs, etc.

* The game has an even stronger focus on miniatures. 3.0 had a strong focus on miniatures, but we wanted to at least address the fact that you might not want to play the game that way. But everyone in the Wizards of the Coast offices does, and so now you have to as well. And Wizards has a new line of miniatures to sell you. Seriously, though, for those wanting to play the game sitting on the couch, the game now offers a new barrier for you. The Combat chapter in the Player's Handbook now reads like a miniatures game. More and more of the game stats use "squares" rather than feet (or both). This is a huge step backward toward the "inches" used in 1st Edition.

I'm not seeing this as a barrier. Converting to feet from squares takes me about a fifth of a second.

* Now weapons are organized by handedness rather than by size. Perhaps the worst change and almost certainly the largest step backward 3.5 has to offer, the new way of handling weapons causes a lot of problems. As you know, in 3.0, weapons were categorized by size, and that size was compared to your own size. So a weapon of your size was a one-handed weapon for you, a weapon one size larger was a two-handed weapon, and a weapon one size smaller was a light weapon. Now, weapons are categorized by handedness, and they do different damage based on size. Thus, it's no longer the case that a longsword is effectively a greatsword for a Small character and a short sword for a Large character. Now, there is a small longsword, a medium longsword (and by implication) a large longsword. So what's the difference between a large longsword and a medium greatsword? About 20 gp. Aside from that bit of humor, though, there's actually a serious design problem here. Because in 3.0, a halfling picks up a magical longsword and uses it in two hands -- no problem. In 3.5, that longsword (presumably a medium longsword) is -2 in the halfling's hands because it's the "wrong size." The DMG doesn't hint one way or the other, but logic assumes that you've either got to roll randomly to determine the size of the magic sword in the treasure hoard, decreasing the chances that any given character will actually find treasure he can use -- and that's not fun. It's more complicated, it's clunky, and it hurts game play.

This is going to drive people nuts. I don't take treasure straight from a treasure-generating program I've generated - picture rolling up a +4 flaming burst greatsword when you've got a fighter who put three (or five in 3.5) feats into his battleaxe.

* The NPC tables in the DMG are now more open ended, and thus less useful. The NPC tables used to be there when you needed a 7th-level fighter or a 13th-level rogue right then and there, in the middle of a game. They came completely statted up and equipped. Now, if you want to use them in that way, you've got to stop in the middle of the game and decide which weapons the fighter uses and spend 8,000 gp on gear for the rogue. Thus, they are useless for the original goal. I guess the designers felt the charts were "boring," because you got the same 7th-level fighter every time. Now, they are clearly meant to be used as pre-game development aids to help make NPCs. Unfortunately, each 7th-level fighter is still going to be an awful lot like every other one using this method. What's more, if you're not in the middle of the game, there's no reason not to just make one up from scratch (or use one of the excellent character generators out there, many of which are free online).

Those charts list how much $ the character has left over - it's pretty easy to figure out what to do with that gear.

* The duration for ability score enhancing spells has been drastically shortened. Talk about changing the way the game is played. Cat's grace used to last an hour per level, mostly so you could cast it, adjust your stats, and not have to worry about it until you rested (again, it was that way to make game play easier and more fun). Now it lasts one minute per level, which means it sees you through one encounter, or two if you rush in between them. These spells have been rendered nearly worthless -- in particular a spell like endurance, now bear's endurance, for extra hit points are far more useful over the long term than just for one encounter, particularly for those who really need it, like wizards.

Yup. Just like fixing Haste. Changing the game.


* Lots of the new feats are the kind that just add a +2 bonus to two skills. For this we paid $90 for new books?

That's a good point. This should go in a web enhancement.


* Inevitables are now in the Monster Manual. I (and a legion of 2nd Edition Planescape fans) miss the clockwork modrons these guys supplanted for some reason. Chalk it up to personal preference.

Um ... okay.


* Taking levels of a prestige class now apparently forces you to pay multiclassing XP costs. Whether intentionally or by accident, the prestige class chapter no longer states that they are free of this cost.

Whoops.

* Some of the new prestige classes are uninteresting (eldritch knight, mystic theurge)

The definition of prestige class has changed, so I wouldn't call them "uninteresting". They are fulfilling a role that previous prestige classes didn't fulfil.

and poorly designed. A cleric just falls into the requirements of the hierophant and any 5th-level sorcerer can become a dragon disciple. The requirements for the eldritch knight are also a joke. I won't rehash the whole mystic theurge debate here, but I will complain that there are far too many spellcasting prestige classes -- conceptually, having the archmage, the loremaster, and the Red wizard seems rather silly.

Yeah ... there are lots and lots of PrCs out there.


* Lots of the "new" material in the DMG is just pulled in from other products -- prestige classes from the various 3.0 supplements, a big chunk of the Manual of the Planes, and the traps from Song and Silence. Lots of D&D fans already own this material.

Agreed. Most of this doesn't affect me - except MotP.


* There are no playtester credits. At all.

This has to be annoying.


Things that should have changed, but didn't:


* Caster level is still a prerequisite for magic item creation. This was an error in the 3.0 DMG and remains. You still have to be 17th level to make a 1st-level pearl of power.

Whoops.


* Speaking of magic items, while the rules for pricing magic items have changed (in some cases, particularly those of constant items or 1 round/level spells), most of the prices haven't conformed to these changes.

The Ring of Invisibility didn't fit the old guidelines either. After all, these are guidelines.


* Keoghtom's Ointment: Why is this a wondrous item and not a potion/oil?

Because they've fixed the definition of Potion.


* Still no good guidelines for creating prestige classes, just more of them in the DMG.

This doesn't bother me much, but I understood that these guidelines were supposed to be expanded. It won't affect my purchase of the books (Amazon.ca is counting my denairos) but it might affect someone else's purchase.


* And the big one: The vast majority of the art in the books is the same. So we're expected to plunk down $90 for three books that cost us $60 three years ago, and most of the art is the same?

This is the big one? As long as they've got pictures for all the celestials and fiends I will be fine.

Anyway, aren't Monte and Sean supposed to wait until the 18th? Or is there something I don't know.
 

Dr_Rictus said:


I don't see what this has to do with the issue of mastery, so I suspect you may be misunderstanding it. It doesn't have anything to do with the ability of gurus to plumb the game. There will certainly be "masters" of 3.5 very quickly, but that's not what we're talking about.

One of the play values that ordinary people get out of a game is the feeling of expertise they get from learning the rules. Changing just enough rules to call all knowledge into question seriously undermines that play value. This is one of the things that turned an awful lot of people off of Magic: The Gathering. The frequency of minor revisions left them confused and irritated, because they could never feel comfortable in their ability to acquire rewarding rules knowledge.

Oh, man :rolleyes:
 


A comment regarding the new weapon size rule:

So Bilbo, Frodo, and Sam were dealing with a continual -2 to hit for using Sting (an elven long-knife)?
 

Hardhead said:
Sure. Check the original announcement where they say "The past two years have been filled with consumer feedback that has provided us with a wealth of information for making our books richer in depth and gameplay -- in short, more opportunity for every fan to enjoy the game a little more.

"After gathering this invaluable input from the fans and putting it together with our own observations, it was clear that some targeted revisions in the three core rulebooks would go a long way toward creating the requested improvements in the D&D roleplayer’s gaming experience. Therefore, we have incorporated fan comments and suggestions into upcoming revised editions of the Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, and Monster Manual."

Here, they're obviously saying that design revisions was the main impetus behind the revision - not a financial reason.

Of course, I'm sure no one is naieve enough to think money played no part, but there's a difference between it being a secondary reason, and it being the main reason.

Read those quotes again please. I do not see the word "financial" in either of them. If you had stated before that WotC claimed that customer desire was a motive, I would have agreed with you. They did make that true statement. The fact that MANY people will willingly purchase this product proves that it is true.

But you are hanging your argument on the bogus idea that saying cutomers want it equates to a denial of doign it for finacial reasons is absurd. As a matter of fact, if the customers did want it, but for some reason it would NOT make money, then they would NOT do it.

If you can not show me a quote that actually states what you claimed, then I will continue to insist that your state,ment was false. (As it is.)


If it makes people mad, it makes them mad. That doesn't mean they shouldn't know the reasons.

ok. So? If business makign finacial choices makes someone mad, they are going to lead a sad angry life.


Of course, if you want to be able to use their future products, you'll need 3.0...

Oh, and Illithids, Slaad, Githyanki, Githzeari, and the "tanar'ri and baatezu" names will not be in the SRD, at least.

and 100% of these things are already 3E available. Your point would be?
 
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