Monte Cook reviews 3.5

Re: re Monte's review

Greg K said:
Monte has clarified that his review might appear to be negative, but in actuallity he thinks there is actually more good stuff than bad about 3.5. The reason that his view seems negative is that he felt the need to back up his criticisms wheras he did not feel that he needed to back up any praise he might have, therefore supporting his criticsms took up much more space.

I accept that. I also accept the fact that it makes no difference as to how it reads: as a negative view of 3.5E

Of course, he is also addressing people who didn't think that anything should have changed, for whom it would have been nice if he'd backed up his judgements of what was right about the revision as well.

Monte remains one of my top four game designers (the others being Gary Gygax, Richard Garfield and Klaus Teuber), but I do wish he'd read his article again before posting and edited it to make it more balanced.

Cheers!
 

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Why does someone who is vocally against the splitting of the market say and do other things that will obviously bring a degree division?
 

tleilaxu said:
this is a product driven by money

Yes, but in a large, important sense, every product is driven by money. I've yet to hear of a philanthropist publisher who chooses to sell gaming materials at a loss.

The motivations, to be honest, really aren't that important. The real question is simple - is it a good product?

Many games get revisions on a timescale well under decade. Shadowrun went from it's 1st to 2nd edition in three years, and it even survived the death of the company that made it. White Wolf games get frequent revisions, and they are going strong. Frequent revisions do not signal a death knell for a product line.
 

seankreynolds said:
{I'm intensely curious to see if 3.5 will prompt some d20 publishers to mix and match the rules they use between the two versions.}

I've been saying for some time now that a lot of people will use 3.5 as a source of common "house rules" but will continue to play 3.0.

I'll be posting my own commentary (adding to Monte's) on my site later tonight.

Ive wondered about this myself since revised 3e was announced. I kind of hope d20 publihers do support both versions in future material-but this seems it may be difficult given the scope and type of changes made by WOTC to the rules.

I wonder if were seeing a fragmentation of d20- sort of reminescent of ADnD 2nd edition were everyone had a list of house rules, kits, etc allowed or disallowed.

Just a thought- Could we possibly see a "New Coke" situation if the revised rules dont sell well. But I guess thats a moot point given the new rule books rationg at Amazon.com.

LOL we live in interesting times. I look forward to hear what SKR thinks.
 
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My concerns about 3.5 follow from how it will impact my games. In other words, will I gain equal or greater value from the revision than my costs in time and money?

As a GAMING GROUP, someone will have to get the new books so we have the new version in hand while we discuss whether or not to change. Given that my current group does not consist of all (or even mostly) game gurus, there may be serious resistance to bringing in a new rules-set. After all, some of the players are only just now becoming comfortable playing certain classes - and by no means all of the classes. Assuming we do switch, then...

As a PLAYER, I will be going back to square one for several of the classes. Not just because special abilities have changed, but also feats, skills, spells, items, and so on. I will almost certainly learn how to properly play my new characters more quickly than I learned 3.0 initially, but it will still take time and effort. And the confusion I feel will be nothing compared to what the newer players will go through.

As a GM, I will have to read the new books with a fine-toothed comb, revise my (rather extensive) house rules, and muddle through the first several sessions as the entire group tries to learn the new system. Given the anal person I am, I'll have to rework many of my old classed npc's. Worse, I'll have to go through every single encounter I've already created to re-balance them, especially the monsters whose CR and/or vulnerabilities have changed significantly in the new version. To arguments that such thoroughness is unnecessary, or can be accomplished "on the fly", consider that it only takes one unbalanced encounter to result in a TPK. My players deserve better, so I have to do the work.

As a CUSTOMER, I will simply stop buying certain kinds of products until all of this settles down. For instance, why buy a 3.0 module, if I'll just have to rework virtually every npc, creature, and magic item within it? If I'll have to change some encounters significantly, because what was balanced before will now wipe out the party - a good example being the new mummy. Products I will continue to look for and possibly purchase will be more general - books of common npc's, taverns, riddles, etc. which depend very little if at all on the specific mechanics.

All of these issues revolve around the issue of mastery which Monte brought up. While many posters on these boards feel this is a non-issue to them, I assure you that for my group and me, it is probably the most important issue.

So here I am, about to invest $63 (Wal-Mart) for the new core books. I am planning to invest a considerable amount of time reading and digesting the changes, big and small. If we switch, I will invest considerably more time in making the transition, whether as player or GM. Is it worth it? I don't know - but that's the question. If a year from now I wouldn't consider going back to 3.0, then the answer will be yes. If a year from now, I couldn't care less which set of rules I'm using, then the revision will lack value for me.

As a side note: I couldn't care less if WOTC planned this primarily as a money-making strategy. So long as I get value for my money, I'm ecstatic about WOTC earning a profit - that way they keep producing products I want. The question isn't did WOTC make 3.5 when and how it did for profit, but does it provide me real value for my gaming dollar. Did they do it well?
 

Sir Whiskers said:
So here I am, about to invest $63 (Wal-Mart) for the new core books.

It's cheaper at buy.com. I believe 18.66 per book with free shipping. If you are going to buy from a bulk distributor you might as well do buy.com instead of Walmart.
 


Just a heads up for those who don't know Monte did a slight revision (with an "update note" as well) of his review to expand on the "good points" of his review...

One thing I think some (at least in my reading of the review and the responses) have missed is that Monte is really reviewing 3.5 on its premise that it is a "revision" and it is because of this (and his opinions on what a revision is) that he can essentially say that 3.5 fails as a revision, but should be purchased because although 3.5 is a bad "revision" it is a generally good product (I'd guess he'd give it a 6 or 7 on his normal review scale... but that's just a guess ;-).

My 2 cents,
Jaldaen
 

Agreed, and you make some good points. "Oh yeah all the classes are exciting and balanced now but the NEW 2ND LEVEL BUFF SPELLS WILL TOTALLY CHANGE THE GAME!!!11!"

Have fun wrestling with that strawman. From what I've read in this thread, he isn't the only one in need of a brain.

People are getting way too hung up on isolated, unimportant changes they don't agree with, and melodramatic tantrums from designers they respect.

The only "melodramatic tantrums" I have seen are from you and your ilk. Anyone who gets this worked up over someone's honest, oft solicited opinion concerning a game really needs to get a life.
 

In my experience, Monte has been consistently professional, direct, and honest. The review is no different. Does he have issues with the book? Yes. Does he recommend the book? Yes.

To me the disturbing thing is not what he wrote. It's the way some people are now twisting it to vindicate their own agenda (on both sides of the revision debate) or ascribe motives that frankly I don't think are there.

People have been bugging Monte for his opinion on 3.5 for a long time now. He gave it -- no more, no less.

-Thrommel


I agree with my former moderator. While this thread does contain some thoughtful, engaging remarks concerning Monte's review, they seem to be drowned out by a spiteful minority who, apparently incapable of cogent argumentation, have resorted to mean-spirited attacks, pedantry (e.g., using the rant-review-rave matrix, I have determined that there are not enough pluses for this to be a review. A few more positive responses are needed to cause a shift), freudian entrail reading (Monte is bitter, resentful, jealous, etc.) strawman argumentation (Monte said the changes to the duration of certain ability-enhancing spells ruins the game!).

In fine, my response to this tempest in a teapot is as before--get a life. If you are going to get worked up about something, get worked up about religion, politics, or Supreme Court decisions (isn't that right, Thrommel?)

PS Yes I am favorably disposed towards Monte and yes, he is my favorite game designer. However, I do not think he is perfect, I do not always agree with him (this latest review of his is no exception) and I do not drool over him.
 

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