Monte Cook's new Grapple rule, and my own

[Noumenon]

I was wondering if there were any cases I hadn't thought of, besides Huge vs Medium and fighter vs wizard. High level PC versus low level giant is one. Thanks. I also haven't done any math with Improved Grapple.

I'm gonna look at this in 3.5 just because I'm not as familiar with CMB yet, especially your modified "take 10" version. Remember, my rule is that only the defender doesn't get his BAB. So when the Lv 10 fighter starts the grapple, he'll have +13 vs +9 (67% win), or 81% win if he has Improved Grapple. Now on the ogre's turn, he has +12 vs +3 (84% win) or 70% win if the fighter has improved grapple. I hadn't anticipated how much of a swing that is, because I hadn't thought of a matchhup where one high grapple is all BAB and the other is all size and strength.

Still, I think swinginess is a feature as much as a bug. You'll really get an eye-gouging, groin-punching wrestling match out of these two fighting, now. Before, when the fighter had improved grapple, he won 67% of the checks and there was no reason for the ogre to do anything but try to escape. Now he might decide to stay and trade blows.

 

[Noumenon]

Tell me about the PF version of Improved Grapple. Does it give a bonus, or just negate the attack of opportunity? Because that's like a +9 bonus to your grapple check right there. I'm surprised anyone manages to start a grapple when the opponent gets to take 15 and add AoO damage to his check result.

 

[Noumenon]

I just thought of an important theoretical justification for this house rule. Why should you get to add your BAB to your grapple check on defense? You don't get to add your BAB to your AC when it's not your turn. Why should your BAB help you defend against other people's grapples?

Of course, you can add a lot of other bonuses to your AC for defense. This opens up the idea of grapple defense bonuses or feats, like the one that Grease gives you. Too bad we can't just use Escape Artist for grapple defense, but that increases even faster than BAB.

 

[Kerrick]

I was wondering if there were any cases I hadn't thought of, besides Huge vs Medium and fighter vs wizard. High level PC versus low level giant is one. Thanks. I also haven't done any math with Improved Grapple.

I would try pairing up two things with a huge size difference, too - say, dragon (Huge or larger) and housecat (Tiny) or fairy (Diminutive) and see how the modifiers balance out.

I'm gonna look at this in 3.5 just because I'm not as familiar with CMB yet, especially your modified "take 10" version.

It's not really a "take 10" version; 10 is the base for every other DC in the system, so it made sense to move the grapple check to 10 too (that, and people complained that it was too high at 15).

Still, I think swinginess is a feature as much as a bug. You'll really get an eye-gouging, groin-punching wrestling match out of these two fighting, now. Before, when the fighter had improved grapple, he won 67% of the checks and there was no reason for the ogre to do anything but try to escape. Now he might decide to stay and trade blows.

The problem with this is you have to remember two numbers - attack and defense. Simpler is better; in this case, having one number for both checks.

If we take Bob and Grok and use the 3.5 rules (inc. the IG feat), Bob's bonus would be +17 for attack and +7 for defense; Grok's would be +12 for attack and +9 for defense. Which means, basically, that Bob will generally win if he initiates the grapple, but Grok has a slightly better chance of breaking free.

Tell me about the PF version of Improved Grapple. Does it give a bonus, or just negate the attack of opportunity? Because that's like a +9 bonus to your grapple check right there. I'm surprised anyone manages to start a grapple when the opponent gets to take 15 and add AoO damage to his check result.

Here's the Imp. Grapple feat, PF style:

You do not provoke an attack of opportunity when performing a grapple combat maneuver. In addition, you receive a +2 bonus on checks made to grapple a foe. In addition, increase the DC of performing a grapple combat maneuver against you by +2.

Effectively, you gain a +2 bonus to CMB and don't provoke AoOs when initiating a grapple.

I just thought of an important theoretical justification for this house rule. Why should you get to add your BAB to your grapple check on defense? You don't get to add your BAB to your AC when it's not your turn. Why should your BAB help you defend against other people's grapples?

Because as any wrestler will tell you, you wouldn't be a very good grappler if you couldn't get out of other people's holds as well as put them on. BAB represents training, and all grapplers are trained to escape and reverse holds/pins too. Using BAB for defense makes eminent sense both for this reason and the one I stated above. You could start using a different system for defense, but it would have a very good chance of overcomplicating grappling even further.

Of course, you can add a lot of other bonuses to your AC for defense. This opens up the idea of grapple defense bonuses or feats, like the one that Grease gives you. Too bad we can't just use Escape Artist for grapple defense, but that increases even faster than BAB.

You could just grant a +1 bonus per 5 ranks. This makes sense and isn't game-breaking.

 

[Noumenon]

I would try pairing up two things with a huge size difference, too - say, dragon (Huge or larger) and housecat (Tiny) or fairy (Diminutive) and see how the modifiers balance out.

How about a 12th level rogue housecat versus a CR 12 purple worm? It's -3 versus +40, so infinitely impossible. Taking away the defender's BAB, it's still impossible -- +40 vs -12 on the worm's turn, -3 versus +24 on the cat's turn.

Monte Cook's system isn't too generous here either -- a fighter would have to power attack at -14 to give the cat a 50-50 shot at escape.

The problem with this is you have to remember two numbers - attack and defense. Simpler is better; in this case, having one number for both checks.

The nice thing is that every monster lists "Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+40." Subtract the first number from the second, and you have your defense. That meets my standard for simplicity. It makes me want to not do anything complicated with the Escape Artist skill.

As an aside, I just realized that Escape Artist basically reads "You escape from grapples as a fighter with 16 Strength. Add your Dex bonus to this check." So basically, before my house rule no class could ever escape a grapple at high levels without Freedom of Movement. Now, the melee classes have a good shot, monks and rogues can do it if they max out Escape Artist, and casters are still helpless 90% of the time. So that will make the classes a little more balanced at high levels.

 

[Kerrick]

How about a 12th level rogue housecat versus a CR 12 purple worm? It's -3 versus +40, so infinitely impossible. Taking away the defender's BAB, it's still impossible -- +40 vs -12 on the worm's turn, -3 versus +24 on the cat's turn.

That's as it should be, I think... but also points to the size modifiers being too large.

I thought of something else - there should be a way to factor the opponent's size relative to yours into the equation as a penalty to your roll when you're attacking or a bonus when defending. Say, anything one size larger/smaller is -1, because they're fairly close and easy to handle; two sizes larger/smaller is -2, then -4, -8, etc. This more closely simulates the difficulty of a purple worm attempting to swallow a cat - the size difference is 5 steps, so +/-16, which drops the worm's bonus to +24 and boosts the cat's to +4.

Now, if we reduce the size modifiers... there are two lines of thought on this one: I think going with the size mod used for AC (or maybe double the size mod) is simpler, but TS thinks a flat +2/size is better. We'll try both.

My method:

Cat: -7 (-2 size, -5 Str); purple worm: +16 (+4 size, +12 Str).

His method:

Cat: -9 (-4 size, -5 Str); purple worm: +18 (+6 size, +12 Str).

If we factor in the size difference, it changes the mods to +9 and +0 for mine, or +7 and +2 for his. Either way, it'll be pretty hard for the worm to swallow that cat - which is as it should be, IMO.

The nice thing is that every monster lists "Base Attack/Grapple: +16/+40." Subtract the first number from the second, and you have your defense. That meets my standard for simplicity. It makes me want to not do anything complicated with the Escape Artist skill.

Good point.

As an aside, I just realized that Escape Artist basically reads "You escape from grapples as a fighter with 16 Strength. Add your Dex bonus to this check."

Where are you getting "as a fighter with 16 Strength"?

So basically, before my house rule no class could ever escape a grapple at high levels without Freedom of Movement.

That's a large part of why everyone was saying that the grapple system is broken.

Now, the melee classes have a good shot, monks and rogues can do it if they max out Escape Artist, and casters are still helpless 90% of the time. So that will make the classes a little more balanced at high levels.

I think you should be able to use Strength or Dex, whichever is higher, to escape a grapple. Both are handy for getting free; they just different methods. Strength presupposes that you just muscle your way free, while Dex assumes that you wriggle out of the hold.

 

[Noumenon]

I don't really want to give a housecat the chance to escape from a purple worm. I think that's one of those tradeoffs you make for choosing to play a Tiny rogue kitty.

Where are you getting "as a fighter with 16 Strength"?

A fighter with 16 strength has a grapple check of BAB + 3, which is his level + 3. Escape Artist maxed out is your level + 3, plus your Dex bonus.

 

[Kerrick]

I don't really want to give a housecat the chance to escape from a purple worm. I think that's one of those tradeoffs you make for choosing to play a Tiny rogue kitty.

Leaving aside for the moment that you can't possibly have a cat with PC levels, you do have a point. Those numbers seemed a little too much in favor of the cat for my taste, but I was just throwing that out - I haven't really made any in-depth analyses yet due to lack of time.

A fighter with 16 strength has a grapple check of BAB + 3, which is his level + 3. Escape Artist maxed out is your level + 3, plus your Dex bonus.

Ah, I see.

Have you thought about the other combat manuevers, too? Everyone gets all stuck on grapple, but they never consider bull rush, trip, overrun, and disarm.

 

[Noumenon]

Leaving aside for the moment that you can't possibly have a cat with PC levels

Because of the intelligence score, right? I didn't really know that. What if you give your cat a headband of intellect?

There aren't any monsters that have "on a successful hit, this monster establishes a hold and can disarm/overrun/trip," so it really doesn't come up.

 

[Kerrick]

Because of the intelligence score, right? I didn't really know that. What if you give your cat a headband of intellect?

I'm not touching that one.

There aren't any monsters that have "on a successful hit, this monster establishes a hold and can disarm/overrun/trip," so it really doesn't come up.

I was thinking about humanoids (especially PCs and NPCs), not monsters. The only other combat maneuver monsters can do like grappling is Trip.