Monte on Character Creation

[Doug McCrae]

I took her aside later, and advised her to ignore all those optional books and whatnot, and we made the character creation process as painless as possible.

Monte, you don't understand how 3e is supposed to work!

The char gen system is gamist. It contains better choices and worse choices, to separate the superior player from the inferior. The more choices, the greater the gulf between optimised and un-optimised PC, the better.

The DM should *not* help a bad player. They should make up a crap character. That character should die, and then all the other players, and the DM, should laugh. It's the only way they'll learn.

 

[ruemere]

Hopefully Monte heard about Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo affair. I would love his ideas to be incorporated in their design.

Personally, I like to be able to choose. I would like to be able to create both quick and simple, or elaborately complex starting characters. Also, after playing a character for a year, I want to be able to change the concept - to reinvent the personality and skills - and to tread a new path... maybe my cleric attains enlightenment, ditches his armor and weapons, and does a wild hermit thingy. Or alternatively, becomes a preacher man with fists of steel and voice of thunder?

I've already allowed my players to recreate their characters (they need to stick to certain core concept, but otherwise abilities, skills and classes are fair game) and it worked great to stave off ennui of 9 year old campaign.

I'll be watching you, Monte.

Regards,
Ruemere

 

[fanboy2000]

Am I the only one who feels strongly reminded of WEG' template system as used in Star Wars or TORG?

I was also reminded of LUG's template system for their Star Trek games. The front of the book had iconic character templates. Pick one and go. The back of the book had, IIRC, a few templates that were less iconic. I.e., if you really wanted to make an enlisted PC. They also had a full point buy system in the back. But the expected, standard method was template.

IME, it is best if the DM, not the game, stats up the pregen for new players - that way, he can tailor the character to the campaign, can avoid the game-design 'traps' that Monte is so enamoured with, and he can keep up to date with whatever supplements are being used in the campaign this week.

The vast majority of D&D pregens I've used, I created myself. Life's just easier that way. Also more fun.

Hopefully Monte heard about Jonathan Tweet and Rob Heinsoo affair.

What!? Aren't they married!?

 

[Tallifer]

My big problem with pregen characters is that they tend to be very much sub-optimal, and become moreso as the game line expands. And so they quickly become useless, as those players with any system mastery insist on creating their own character, meaning that everyone else needs to do likewise (or get the GM to do it for them), or fall behind - even further behind than they already are due to their lack of system mastery!

I have a solution for the contradiction between the ease of pre-generated (or very quickly generated) characters and their optimization. As a dungeon master I allow a player to make almost any change he sees fit between sessions, especially after the first session. Even race, class, name and ability scores. Now that the palyer has started playing, he knows the world, the campaign, the party and the story. He can now write a better character for the story.

It is exactly like any other work of fiction. Script writers, novelists and playwrights often have to change characters to suit the story better. A game of Dungeons & Dragons is not real life: there is no such thing as an objective reality which demands a fixed chronology and world.

Obviously the further the game progresses, the fewer the changes allowed since by then the story has taken on an artificial life of its own.

 

[Lanefan]

Character generation should, at its most basic, take less than 10 minutes for an experienced player and half an hour for someone who has never seen an RPG before.

0e and 1e had this. Early 2e had this, until the bloat set in. 3e never had this. 4e - well, you tell me and we'll both know.

It seems that people cry out for the addition of more mechanical options and choices in their characters in the name of customization, yet complain when character generation takes half the night and-or needs a computer program to do it for you. Well, the bad news is you can't have both.

Me, I'd prefer each class has all its options and abilities etc. baked in, ditto race; so all you do at char-gen is roll some dice, choose (or roll, if you like) race and class, buy some equipment, figure out what spells you have (if relevant), and flesh it out (e.g. age, height, weight, gender, languages, handedness, birthday, past profession, etc.) to taste...and the lfeshing-out can be done later unless the trap you just stepped on requires the DM to know your weight right this minute.

I'd also prefer there be relatively little change from one level to the next; so all the player has to do at level-up is roll h.p. and maybe a few other dice (percentile increments on ability scores, for example) and keep on truckin'.

Pleasant side effect to all of this is system mastery becomes much less of a mechanical advantage. Personally, I don't want to learn the game inside out - I just want to bang out a simple character or two and drop the puck.

Lanefan

 

[Shades of Green]

I'd like a system that gives you a finite number of significant choices at chargen, each with a clear and distinct game effect.

For example, you might choose Race (Human, Elf or Dwarf), then Alignment (Lawful, Neutral or Chaotic) then Class (Fighter, Rogue or Sorcerer), then Specialty (3 choices per class, affected by Race and Alignment), then Background (Peasant, Urbanite, Noble, Barbarian, Criminal, Scholar) and then Equipment Package. Each choices affects the rest, but in each stage you have a very finite number of options with clear distinctions between them. Once you finish these choices you'll have a distinct and interesting character, all while avoiding the need for "optimization". Want a Dark Elf Necromancer? Choose a Chaotic Elf Sorcerer of a Noble background.

 

[Sadras]

One thing that peeves me off is players who put in so little effort that they can't remember basic plot points, major NPC names, or their own character's powers and abilities. As a DM, I'm expected to know everything and be ultra prepared and yet players think they don't have any responsibility towards the maintenance and progression of the game and the group. That just doesn't cut it, as far as I'm concerned.

This cannot be stressed enough.

I've tried this about a dozen times with a dozen different groups. Each and every time everyone says, "Sure, yeah, that's a great idea!" Then when it comes time to do it, everyone sits around twiddling their thumbs and uhmming and aahing and using the thinnest and flimsiest of justifications to create character ties like, "Oh, she's my sister..." and then everyone just wants to play.
One day I'll find a good group... one day.

LOL! I have only just found a decent group after 20 years - managed to weed off all the half-interested, the latecomers, the absentees, the sleepers...I also did my share of poaching other groups

 

[Viking Bastard]

I agree with Monte, at least on principle. I hate chargen in 3e and 4e. I love creating characters, but translating them to stats is a pain. At the same time, while I as a player will never enjoy customizing my characters to that extent, a lot of players do and I'm cool with that: Let them spend hours customizing their stats, just as long as I never feel forced to do that.

 

[Sunseeker]

Strikes me as language very similar to that of power gamers.

Not wanting to make choices in advance, not wanting to bother with the details, not wanting to really make a character but more of a stat-monster, wanting a lot of information beforehand.

I agree that there is some merit in having advance knowledge, but to me, it seems somewhat counter to how I feel games like D&D should be. You play what you want to play, what you want to be, not what you need to be in order to get ahead.

I don't have any problems with his ideas though, pregens are great for quick games, but I wouldn't consider them valuable in the long-run for player investment. No front-loading is fine by me, it eliminates class-dipping that I despise so greatly. And being able to make a character quickly, even if you're new, is always a good thing.

To be honest, I can see some of this ideology in the DDN classes.

Themes and Backgrounds are "don't sweat the small stuff" decisions that allow you to make one big decision which makes a bunch of small decisions for you. Classes aren't quite as frontloaded as they used to be, with more of that falling into those "big quick choices".


I really care about the characters I create, so long character creation times doesn't bother me. I'm not out to make a stat-monster, and every time I've made something quick and dirty like that after about 2 sessions I hate it. Those characters are flat, boring, and as a writer make me just cringe.

 

[Fifth Element]

I'd also prefer there be relatively little change from one level to the next; so all the player has to do at level-up is roll h.p. and maybe a few other dice (percentile increments on ability scores, for example) and keep on truckin'.

I have no problem with leveling taking a bit of time, because it's typically done between play sessions and therefore doesn't take away from play time.