D&D 4E "Mook" rules for 4E monsters?

[Alaxk Knight of Galt]

I think the problem with mooks is that even if they are wussy, if there are twenty of them you still more or less have to roll twenty attacks. Is there any way to mitigate THAT, other than saying only some proportion of them are allowed to take an attack action in a round? Because that would be a slightly odd solution?

Wyz, I brought up the 7th Sea example to show how that system handles multiple minor threats to the Heroes/Party. By breaking the group of twenty into groups of 5, you now have to roll only 4 attacks and base their damage off of remaining group size. You lose some of the precise tactical miniature combat, but you pick up style points

Of course, that's assuming WotC goes this way. The could very easily expect you to roll for 20 guys. (Break out the dice bag, your going to need it )

Slight Rant Warning
At the moment, DnD is basically a miniature combat game with role playing wrapped around it. The rules for social interaction are very light and typically come down to an opposed roll. The vast majority of the rules are for resolving combat interactions. Playing 3.X without a combat grid is tough for the system as precise placement of spells, precise placement of characters, AoO, movement based characters, and movement dependent actions are critical for 3.X to properly determine what has occurred.

Because the rules demand combat precision, its very difficult or just very time consuming to run large encounters. The rules want each of the 20 member drow warparty to be physically represented on the combat grid and have their actions independently resolved.

When 3.0 first came out, I was absolutely in love with the combat rules. Its exactly what I wanted. The precision of it appealed to me and I thought abstract combat was a sin against nature.

As I've aged, I've found myself wanting different things from my games. Abstract combat interest me more for RPG games. I don't need to know if I'm exactly 15 or 20 feet from the dragon to enjoy my well place arrow or a devastating lightning bolt. If the cinematic elements of the fight dictate that the knight be able to reach his fallen comrade to fend off the savages trying to kill him, great, that's the way I want it. I don't need to think that the knight is actually carrying 120lbs of equipment instead of 110lbs of equipment and is thus can only move 20 feat instead of 30. What's heroic or interesting about micro-managing your character. Let the story rule, not the numbers.

Save your minis, your combat grids, your fireball templates, your hours-long combat, and your precision for tabletop miniature games like Warhammer. Give me the theater of the mind for RPGs.

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Perhaps I am no longer the target audience for 4e.

 

[Gort]

I think the trouble with using a low-level baddie against a high level team in D&D nowadays is that they'll be instantly killed by an AOE, and they're absolutely no threat - needing 20s to hit the party.

Minions have to be able to survive getting AOEd so their fight lasts a bit of time (I've got no problem with whirlwind attack, though, at least that won't take out twenty guys at once) and they have to be able to hit the party - it sucks when you need a 20 to hit.

So, what I want from minions - a fight that lasts a bit of time and the ability to hurt the party a bit.

 

[Stalker0]

I use the mob template for my mooks right now and it works pretty well. Mooks take a lot of damage from area effects and the like, but they autodeal damage if they can get to you, so they can be dangerous opponents if your not careful.

I'd wager there maybe something of this note. Perhaps mooks will great the leader a bonus or something of that nature.

 

[BASHMAN]

I hope they don't specifically use the word "Minion" because then people will think I was copying D&D 4e even if BASH! has been using the term for years (and I am sure some other games do too, but I don't know of any). It'd be even worse if to add insult to injury I found a nice lawsuit for not using the OGL documentation when I published a product using the word "minion" to describe easier enemies.

Personally I don't think minion rules belong in D&D because D&D is the gritty rpg where you have HP, the enemies have HP, and a PC can be taken out by the orc's crit on a greataxe. Likewise, even the nastiest enemies can be worn down over time. That is part of the game. If they make D&D into some cinematic all-or-nothing super-actiony system, what are people gonna do to get their gritty dungeon-hack of attrition fix? C&C? GURPS?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

I hope they don't specifically use the word "Minion" because then people will think I was copying D&D 4e even if BASH! has been using the term for years (and I am sure some other games do too, but I don't know of any). It'd be even worse if to add insult to injury I found a nice lawsuit for not using the OGL documentation when I published a product using the word "minion" to describe easier enemies.

Personally I don't think minion rules belong in D&D because D&D is the gritty rpg where you have HP, the enemies have HP, and a PC can be taken out by the orc's crit on a greataxe. Likewise, even the nastiest enemies can be worn down over time. That is part of the game. If they make D&D into some cinematic all-or-nothing super-actiony system, what are people gonna do to get their gritty dungeon-hack of attrition fix? C&C? GURPS?

Warhammer is grim & gritty. D&D is far from it, in my experience.

 

[Gort]

D&D is really gritty... even the nastiest enemies can be worn down over time. That is part of the game.

Huh? D&D is far from gritty. Let's take the "nastiest enemy" from the Monster Manual - the Tarrasque. You could throw an infinite sea of level 1 warriors at that - even the ones that pass the fear check (on a 20) need to get past its 3 AoOs, which hit on anything but a natural 1 and kill instantly, to get close enough to make an attack that needs a 20 to hit it. Even IF one criticals and gets past the damage reduction 15/epic, the Tarrasque still heals 40 HP a round.

It's not gonna get worn down.