Morality of mind control…

[TiQuinn]

If you take a drug in full understanding of its effects and with full consent hoping for it to affect you, then it’s a drug, not a poison. If someone gives you a drug without your knowledge and consent, as an assault on you, it’s a poison. That’s the medical definition. If I as a doctor help you do the former, I’m doing my job. If I do the latter, I’m committing assault and am rather likely to get arrested and struck off. About the only exception to this distinction is euthanasia, and only because euthanasia is illegal in some jurisdictions. My intentions and your knowledge make all the difference before the GMC and in a court of law.

In medicine, doctors, nurses and emergency workers do not tend to talk in terms of what is or is not a poison. Nearly any substance can be a poison in the wrong dose over a course of time, I.E. water intoxication.

 

[tetrasodium]

In medicine, doctors, nurses and emergency workers do not tend to talk in terms of what is or is not a poison. Nearly any substance can be a poison in the wrong dose over a course of time, I.E. water intoxication.

He's not wrong though. The difference between poison and medicine is often a matter of knowing when and how much to provide someone. I've seen more than one health care professional I know socially or am related to express the same "all medicine is poison but" phrase from earlier as a thing they were taught in school.

Just to put a point on it tons of people are on blood pressure meds that would knock most people right out (or worse) from hypotension if given and here are several examples of plants literally considered to be poison that are used in medicine and how.
Here are some examples of herbs once considered poison that are now used in medicine:
Belladonna (Deadly Nightshade)

• Active compounds: This plant contains tropane alkaloids, such as atropine and scopolamine. The name belladonna, meaning "beautiful lady," refers to its use by Italian Renaissance women who would use drops to dilate their pupils, which was considered an attractive feature.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Ophthalmology: Dilates pupils for eye exams and surgery.
  • Gastrointestinal issues: Hyoscyamine is used to treat cramps associated with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).
  • Motion sickness: Scopolamine is available in patches to prevent motion sickness.
  • Antidote: Atropine serves as an antidote for some nerve agent and insecticide poisonings.

Foxglove

• Active compound: The leaves of the foxglove plant contain cardiac glycosides, primarily digoxin.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Heart failure: Digoxin is used to improve the strength and efficiency of heart muscle contractions.
  • Arrhythmias: It is also prescribed to control the rate and rhythm of an irregular heartbeat, such as atrial fibrillation.

Oleander

• Active compound: Oleander contains toxic cardiac glycosides, such as oleandrin, which are similar to the active chemical in foxglove.
• Medicinal uses: While the plant is highly poisonous and unsafe for self-medication, researchers are investigating oleandrin for potential anticancer properties. Lab studies have shown that it may suppress cancer cell growth, but human trials are limited.

Aconite (Wolfsbane)

• Active compounds: This plant contains diterpenoid alkaloids, such as aconitine, which are highly toxic, especially to the nervous system and heart.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): After extensive processing to reduce its toxicity, aconite has been used for centuries to treat pain, inflammation, and heart conditions.
  • Analgesic: Less toxic derivatives of the alkaloids have shown analgesic (pain-relieving) and anti-inflammatory properties.

Autumn Crocus

• Active compound: The autumn crocus contains the powerful alkaloid colchicine, which inhibits cell division and can be lethal in high doses.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Gout: Colchicine is a mainstay for treating and preventing gout attacks, as it reduces the inflammation caused by uric acid crystal deposits.
  • Familial Mediterranean Fever (FMF): It is also used to prevent inflammation-related attacks in FMF, a genetic inflammatory disorder.

Nux Vomica (Poison Nut)

• Active compounds: The seeds of the nux vomica tree contain strychnine and brucine, two toxic alkaloids that affect the nervous system.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Medicine: Processed seeds have been used in Ayurvedic and Traditional Chinese Medicine for conditions such as rheumatic pain, nervous system disorders, and gastrointestinal issues.
  • Neurological research: The controlled use of these compounds has aided in research on how the nervous system functions.

 

[kermit4karate]

He's not wrong though. The difference between poison and medicine is often a matter of knowing when and how much to provide someone. I've seen more than one health care professional I know socially or am related to express the same "all medicine is poison but" phrase from earlier as a thing they were taught in school.

Just to put a point on it tons of people are on blood pressure meds that would knock most people right out (or worse) from hypotension if given and here are several examples of plants literally considered to be poison that are used in medicine and how.
Here are some examples of herbs once considered poison that are now used in medicine:
Belladonna (Deadly Nightshade)

• Active compounds: This plant contains tropane alkaloids, such as atropine and scopolamine. The name belladonna, meaning "beautiful lady," refers to its use by Italian Renaissance women who would use drops to dilate their pupils, which was considered an attractive feature.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Ophthalmology: Dilates pupils for eye exams and surgery.
  • Gastrointestinal issues: Hyoscyamine is used to treat cramps associated with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).
  • Motion sickness: Scopolamine is available in patches to prevent motion sickness.
  • Antidote: Atropine serves as an antidote for some nerve agent and insecticide poisonings.

Foxglove

• Active compound: The leaves of the foxglove plant contain cardiac glycosides, primarily digoxin.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Heart failure: Digoxin is used to improve the strength and efficiency of heart muscle contractions.
  • Arrhythmias: It is also prescribed to control the rate and rhythm of an irregular heartbeat, such as atrial fibrillation.

Oleander

• Active compound: Oleander contains toxic cardiac glycosides, such as oleandrin, which are similar to the active chemical in foxglove.
• Medicinal uses: While the plant is highly poisonous and unsafe for self-medication, researchers are investigating oleandrin for potential anticancer properties. Lab studies have shown that it may suppress cancer cell growth, but human trials are limited.

Aconite (Wolfsbane)

• Active compounds: This plant contains diterpenoid alkaloids, such as aconitine, which are highly toxic, especially to the nervous system and heart.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): After extensive processing to reduce its toxicity, aconite has been used for centuries to treat pain, inflammation, and heart conditions.
  • Analgesic: Less toxic derivatives of the alkaloids have shown analgesic (pain-relieving) and anti-inflammatory properties.

Autumn Crocus

• Active compound: The autumn crocus contains the powerful alkaloid colchicine, which inhibits cell division and can be lethal in high doses.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Gout: Colchicine is a mainstay for treating and preventing gout attacks, as it reduces the inflammation caused by uric acid crystal deposits.
  • Familial Mediterranean Fever (FMF): It is also used to prevent inflammation-related attacks in FMF, a genetic inflammatory disorder.

Nux Vomica (Poison Nut)

• Active compounds: The seeds of the nux vomica tree contain strychnine and brucine, two toxic alkaloids that affect the nervous system.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Medicine: Processed seeds have been used in Ayurvedic and Traditional Chinese Medicine for conditions such as rheumatic pain, nervous system disorders, and gastrointestinal issues.
  • Neurological research: The controlled use of these compounds has aided in research on how the nervous system functions.

Fascinating! So you're saying that the morality of administering potentially dangerous compounds is situational?

 

[TiQuinn]

He's not wrong though. The difference between poison and medicine is often a matter of knowing when and how much to provide someone. I've seen more than one health care professional I know socially or am related to express the same "all medicine is poison but" phrase from earlier as a thing they were taught in school.

Just to put a point on it tons of people are on blood pressure meds that would knock most people right out (or worse) from hypotension if given and here are several examples of plants literally considered to be poison that are used in medicine and how.
Here are some examples of herbs once considered poison that are now used in medicine:
Belladonna (Deadly Nightshade)

• Active compounds: This plant contains tropane alkaloids, such as atropine and scopolamine. The name belladonna, meaning "beautiful lady," refers to its use by Italian Renaissance women who would use drops to dilate their pupils, which was considered an attractive feature.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Ophthalmology: Dilates pupils for eye exams and surgery.
  • Gastrointestinal issues: Hyoscyamine is used to treat cramps associated with irritable bowel syndrome (IBS).
  • Motion sickness: Scopolamine is available in patches to prevent motion sickness.
  • Antidote: Atropine serves as an antidote for some nerve agent and insecticide poisonings.

Foxglove

• Active compound: The leaves of the foxglove plant contain cardiac glycosides, primarily digoxin.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Heart failure: Digoxin is used to improve the strength and efficiency of heart muscle contractions.
  • Arrhythmias: It is also prescribed to control the rate and rhythm of an irregular heartbeat, such as atrial fibrillation.

Oleander

• Active compound: Oleander contains toxic cardiac glycosides, such as oleandrin, which are similar to the active chemical in foxglove.
• Medicinal uses: While the plant is highly poisonous and unsafe for self-medication, researchers are investigating oleandrin for potential anticancer properties. Lab studies have shown that it may suppress cancer cell growth, but human trials are limited.

Aconite (Wolfsbane)

• Active compounds: This plant contains diterpenoid alkaloids, such as aconitine, which are highly toxic, especially to the nervous system and heart.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Chinese Medicine (TCM): After extensive processing to reduce its toxicity, aconite has been used for centuries to treat pain, inflammation, and heart conditions.
  • Analgesic: Less toxic derivatives of the alkaloids have shown analgesic (pain-relieving) and anti-inflammatory properties.

Autumn Crocus

• Active compound: The autumn crocus contains the powerful alkaloid colchicine, which inhibits cell division and can be lethal in high doses.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Gout: Colchicine is a mainstay for treating and preventing gout attacks, as it reduces the inflammation caused by uric acid crystal deposits.
  • Familial Mediterranean Fever (FMF): It is also used to prevent inflammation-related attacks in FMF, a genetic inflammatory disorder.

Nux Vomica (Poison Nut)

• Active compounds: The seeds of the nux vomica tree contain strychnine and brucine, two toxic alkaloids that affect the nervous system.
• Medicinal uses:
  • Traditional Medicine: Processed seeds have been used in Ayurvedic and Traditional Chinese Medicine for conditions such as rheumatic pain, nervous system disorders, and gastrointestinal issues.
  • Neurological research: The controlled use of these compounds has aided in research on how the nervous system functions.

Right, so from a semantics POV, I think what’s being said relative to the thread is that poison or poisoning someone is about intent - did you intend to use that substance as a means of harm? Whether something is a poison or not is kinda besides the point. It also goes back to how much real world chemistry and physics does one really want to bring into a TTRPG.

 

[kermit4karate]

Right, so from a semantics POV, I think what’s being said relative to the thread is that poison or poisoning someone is about intent - did you intend to use that substance as a means of harm? Whether something is a poison or not is kinda besides the point. It also goes back to how much real world chemistry and physics does one really want to bring into a TTRPG.

OooOOOooo! Intent! Yes, now we might actually be getting somewhere in terms of crafting administerable TTRPG mechanics to define whether a particular use of mind control should be considered evil.

If the spellcaster intended to cause harm, clear case of evil. If the spellcaster intended to prevent harm, up to the DM's judgment.

So...basically, exactly how most people have interpreted it for decades already?

 

[Laurefindel]

Fascinating! So you're saying that the morality of administering potentially dangerous compounds is situational?

I haven’t read t he full thread so I can only assume that you are reinforcing your point that some morally dubious act - like poison - vary in « wrongness » depending on situation and dosage.

Legal codes around the globe seems to agree with that; the situation and intensity of a crime can go from legitimate to the worse sentence allowed by legislation, and anywhere in-between.

Even morally, wrongness is often situational and proportional to the magnitude of the misdeed. White lies do not equal murder, even if both are ‘wrongs’.

Just like what is right is not always just, and what is just is not always fair, what is wrong is not Evil with capital E.

 

[tetrasodium]

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Right, so from a semantics POV, I think what’s being said relative to the thread is that poison or poisoning someone is about intent - did you intend to use that substance as a means of harm? Whether something is a poison or not is kinda besides the point. It also goes back to how much real world chemistry and physics does one really want to bring into a TTRPG.

Yes intent matters greatly, but it's not everything either. I mentioned it several pages back in post 33 how the OP itself corrupts the discussion with a terrible comparison to star wars. The star was lore and fiction are so cartoonized it turns the whole question into a bizarre form of absolute morality that makes old school lawful anal paladins and unwinnable damned if you don't gotcha alignment memes of the old school absolute morality.

HOWEVER. There should be lines where things start to change and it ceases to be a matter of intent. At a certain point the question shifts from if the intent justifies the impact on an individual to if the telepath or group is capable of being justified in taking a particular course of action towards a wider less powerful group, that question and when that second group is ready to have their simple refusal to accept it be taken seriously as coming from someone equal enough to understand their decision

---

 

[SkidAce]

What if mind control is permanent? That is, whatever rewriting the psychic does creates a lasting inherent change in the target? For example, the PCs use charm person against a guard to let them into the keep.

What if that makes a permanent change to the guards disposition and perception. The guard will never know they were controlled,wil never have guilt or suffer trauma over what they did, and will always believe that they did the right thing by helping the PCs. Where does that sit on the "It's evil" continuum?

Horrifyingly evil.

You could say its not even the same person anymore.

 

[TiQuinn]

how the OP itself corrupts the discussion with a terrible comparison to star wars.

This seems highly dramatic.

 

[overgeeked]

Horrifyingly evil.

You could say its not even the same person anymore.

Yeah. To me even a "slight" use of mind control is beyond horrifyingly evil in and of itself. Permanently altering someone's mind in that way...words fail to do justice to that level of evil.