Morality, oh and come in and help out!

[haiiro]

The first thing that popped into my head was the movie Unbreakable. In particular, the part where the hero is "scanning" the crowd, and is made aware of various dark deeds people have done. He keeps scanning until he finds one that is a) totally reprehensible in his eyes, and b) something he can change with direct action.

It's not a perfect analogy (I don't think of the protagonist in Unbreakable as a paladin, the paladin doesn't get to know of an evil beings deeds, etc.), but I think it's a pretty good reference point.

I think the paladin would detect low/moderate levels of evil frequently in most socieities, and would rightly focus on those that context suggests are most important to deal with - i.e., not the merchant. He might feel some inner turmoil at ignoring this evil presence, but being lawful good doesn't mean he has to be impractical.

I choose option 5: grits his teeth a little, and moves on.

 

[Larry Fitz]

Liquide proposed:

"and it does detect alignments, Paladins ability works as the spell I might note you who missed it."

I read the SRD, I've read the PHB, it does not say that the spell detects alignment. It does say that it detects evil creatures. I believe it is this very situation that the description is trying to avoid. Paladins are special holy warriors, there are real threats to Law and Good out there that they are needed to put down. If their ability distracts them to the point where thewy are chasing down every two-bit hood and street thug they come across, then the real villains (dragons, 20th level Clerics of Mayhem and Child Abuse, Half-demon Sorcerors specializing in Necromancy) who are more difficult to find bu in the end far more of threat to Lawfulness and goodnesss.

 

[Mathew_Freeman]

I'd go number 4. Mostly for the same reasons as above. The Paladin would certainly feel a little uncomfortable, but they are just as much Lawful as Good, so investigating his dodgy dealings and turning him over to the Law would be the right thing to do.

 

[Tonguez]

and it does detect alignments, Paladins ability works as the spell I might note you who missed it.

Can you highlight exactly where it says that the spell detects alignment? From what I can see the ONLY reference to alignment is to say that those of Good alignment are overwhelmed by the Evil Aura

What the Spell detects (IMO) is

Evil creature
Undead creature
Evil elemental
Evil magic item or Spell
Evil outsider
Cleric of an evil deity

NB this means that a True Neutral Cleric of an Evil diety will detect as Evil even though that is NOT their alignment. Ergo the Spell does not detect the Alignment (which is True Neutral) but the Evil Aura of the Diety's power

Detect Evil
Divination
Level: Clr 1, Rgr 2
Components: V, S, DF
Casting Time: 1 action
Range: 60 ft.
Area: Quarter circle emanating from the character to the extreme of the range
Duration: Concentration, up to 10 minutes/level (D)
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: No
The character can sense the presence of evil. The amount of information revealed depends on how long the character studies a particular area or subject:
1st Round: Presence or absence of evil.
2nd Round: Number of evil auras (creatures, objects, or spells) in the area and the strength of the strongest evil aura present. If the character is of good alignment, the strongest evil aura’s strength is "overwhelming" (see below), and the strength is at least twice the character's character level, the character is stunned for 1 round and the spell ends. While the character is stunned, the character can’t act, the character loses any Dexterity bonus to AC, and attackers gain +2 bonuses to attack the character.
3rd Round: The strength and location of each aura. If an aura is outside the character's line of sight, then the character discerns its direction but not its exact location.
Aura Strength: An aura’s evil power and strength depend on the type of evil creature or object that the character is detecting and its HD, caster level, or (in the case of a cleric) class level.
Creature/Object Evil Power
--------------- ----------
Evil creature HD / 5
Undead creature HD / 2
Evil elemental HD / 2
Evil magic item
or spell Caster level / 2
Evil outsider HD
Cleric of an
evil deity Level
Evil Power Aura Strength
---------- -------------
Lingering Dim
1 or less Faint
2–4 Moderate
5–10 Strong
11+ Overwhelming
If an aura falls into more than one strength category, the spell indicates the stronger of the two.
Length Aura Lingers: How long the aura lingers depends on its original strength:
Original Strength Duration
----------------- --------
Faint 1d6 minutes
Moderate 1d6 X 10 minutes
Strong 1d6 hours
Overwhelming 1d6 days
Remember that animals, traps, poisons, and other potential perils are not evil; this spell does not detect them.
Note: Each round, the character can turn to detect things in a new area. The spell can penetrate barriers, but 1 foot of stone, 1 inch of common metal, a thin sheet of lead, or 3 feet of wood or dirt blocks it.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[Winterthorn]

Here are a few questions/thoughts of a general nature that may help:

1) Is alignment a descriptor of how a character has behaved "up until now"? Or is it a prescriptor of how a character will behave?

I think alignment represents a past behaviour, particularly with respect to blood 'n' guts, life and death issues, and that it only predicts, and not prescribe future behaviour...

2) Is a Paladin "Judge and Jury"?

Good question I think, because culture plays a role here--Paladins of different cultures will have different perspectives on the same issue--very much a matter of degree too IMO. One culture may license Paladins by law to act on their own (but still expect to account for their actions), while another culture may demand of Paladins to adhere to the "due process of the law"...

3) What about Mercy? Isn't mercy a tenant of Goodness? Shouldn't a Paladin act mercifully to even his/her worst foes? (I wish Paladins had a special ability relating to subdual attacks...)

It seems to me that a Paladin, being an agent of all that is Good in the Multiverse, will be tested many times during their career/life path. Knowing even the vilest of mortal foes feel pain and anguish--and are possibly motivated by such things in destructive ways--a Paladin must consider the best way to "heal" such a destructive state of being and acting... Killing is hence a cop-out, with perhaps the only exception as an act of defense from a more immediately certain dangerous outcome.

4) And of redemption? Aren't the "forces of Goodness" required to account for the possible redemption of those who've knowingly acted evilly? A saint would give a devil a second chance, no?

I think Paladins must always leave this option open, just because a mortal before them is "tainted" by an evil history, doesn't mean there's no chance they can change. Outsiders, Undead, and immortal beings maybe another matter though... The redemption of an evil outsider is probably beyond the influence of a mere mortal Paladin's actions. Indeed, just because a Paladin "slays" a demon on the material plane, is it really "dead"--or merely severely punished? (DM's call here I think.)

Taking into account the above four points, and the remarks here of other posters, I'd say number 4.

-W.

 

[Dragonblade]

1. Promtly draws his sword and slays Huigrath where he stands.
2. Goes to the Lord / Court and explains that this man is evil (even though he has no hard evidence) and that he must be jailed.
3. Talks with his party about this man and that they should follow him and do a little investigation of their own to see whom this fellow really is. Then if they find proof about evil acts slay him where he stands.
4. As above but take the evidence gathered against Huigrath and turn him over to law for a fair trial.
5. Other action, please explain below.
   [/list=1]

1. 
   
   Well, the paladin is in a foreign town and while LG and on a divine crusade to destroy evil, the paladin isn't stupid.
   
   He will investigate the atmosphere of the town, their attitudes, beliefs and culture. He will investigate the merchant to more closely discern why he is evil. Then investigate those he associates with to discern if they may be evil as well.
   
   If the town is a good place with an existing LG church and clergy, the paladin shall approach this clergy and explain who he is and his divine mission. He will ask if they are familiar with the evil merchant and if so why haven't they dealt with him before?
   
   If the clergy has been unable to act because the merchant is under the protection of the town's lords the paladin will determine if they are evil as well. If so, then presumably the LG church doesn't have the strenght to stand up to them. The paladin may send messages back to his homeland to send more troops, paladins and clerics to his aid. When he has the military support he needs the paladin will lead a coup to remove these evil men from power and install a new LG leader as ruler.
   
   If the paladin for some reason doesn't have any military support from home and if the paladin feels the town's legal system is not sufficiently rooted in the tenets of LG and the paladin's faith to allow him to bring justice to the merchant publicly, the paladin may very well go and secretly assassinate the merchant and any evil lords that support him.

 

[jdavis]

Detect Evil doesn't tell you the alignment, but it does tell you if somebody is truely evil or not. You could not tell the difference between Lawful Evil and Chaotic Evil but you can tell the difference between cheats at cards and drinks the blood of innocent children. I guess that is something that is lacking in the story, but I'll assume he sensed enough of a evil aura that he actually noticed that something was particularly wrong with the person over the other card cheats and puppy kickers in the area. Instead of arguing what is right and wrong with the scenario mechanics, I'll stick to the moral question. If you assume that the Paladin took the time to see how powerful the evil aura was then that would play into what actions he would take, but I would assume that there would be some action against even the lightest of evil auras, he might not want to kill the card cheat but evil is evil, it would be something that would bother the Paladin.

There also is the way of thinking that evil is rare and that if somebody is of evil alignment then they are EVIL, card cheats and puppy kickers are neutral, Evil npc's are all EVIL, they are not just selfish merchants, they are rotten to the core people who are truely dark and vile, even though they might hide it well. This goes back to the Black and White vs Shades of Gray arguement, I prefer that D&D be totally Black and White when it comes to good and evil, if somebody regesters to detect Evil then they are evil, end of story. This is totally a setting issue, it depends on what the players and the DM decide, and it will be different from group to group.

 

[Dragonblade]

Here are a few questions/thoughts of a general nature that may help:

1) Is alignment a descriptor of how a character has behaved "up until now"? Or is it a prescriptor of how a character will behave?

2) Is a Paladin "Judge and Jury"?

3) What about Mercy? Isn't mercy a tenant of Goodness? Shouldn't a Paladin act mercifully to even his/her worst foes? (I wish Paladins had a special ability relating to subdual attacks...)

4) And of redemption? Aren't the "forces of Goodness" required to account for the possible redemption of those who've knowingly acted evilly? A saint would give a devil a second chance, no?


-W.

Interesting. Here are my thoughts:

1) The alignment is an indication that the evil being committed acts in the past and is still evil now and will likely be evil in the future. It is not the paladin's responsibility to worry about maybes, coulds and what ifs. There is evil present right now and the paladin will act.

2) The paladin is judge and jury by virtue of his innate goodness and wisdom. If the paladin couldn't handle such responsibility then he would never have become a paladin in the first place. His paladinhood is a testament to the responsibility and authority vested in him by the forces of good.

3) Paladin's fight evil without mercy. Mercy is a luxury that the paladin may grant depending on the situation but not always and is under no obligation to do so even if evil beings beg for it.

4) It is the responsibility of evil beings to redeem themselves before the sword of justice finds their head. It is not the responsibility of the forces of good to wait and hold back in the chance that some being may become good. They shouldn't have been evil in the first place.

 

[Dragonblade]

In my view, card cheats and greedy merchants are more selfish than evil. Perhaps, CN and LN, respectively.

To be Evil means that the being in question has no regard for innocent life or rights and is willing to rape, murder, poison, betray, lie and enslave any number of innocent others to achieve their goals.

The ways and sometimes degree is determined by the L, N, or C part of their alignment.

LE may have a twisted code of honor or may even follow the letter of the law but definitely not the spirit and will still try to get away with whatever they can.

NE is a more selfish evil, doing whatever is necessary regardless of laws and such but not necessarily being cruel out of sheer enjoyment like CE.

CE is committing random acts of evil and cruelty simply for the thrill of it in addition to pursuing their goals.

 

[Olive]

Option 6 Detect Evil detects Evil Creatures - Huigrath is NOT an Evil Creature (alignment is not a Creature Descriptor) he is a Humanoid Creature with an evil alignment

Otherwise (ie if you use the Detect Evil mega-radar variant)Option 5 - stay silent until One knows more about this town and its culture - maybe the whole Merchants Guild and Nobility is part of some Dark Cult and thrall to some Demon-god...MWAHAHAHA!

so what is an evil creature? the SRB specifies evil creatures and evil outsiders. Evil (as a creature descriptor) only appears with outsiders as far as i can tell. so the description would be redundant. it doesn't define evil creatures as anything, so the assumption that evil has to be a part of the creatures type is just that, an assumption. I mean, name one evil creature that isn't a outsider? maybe i'm missing something. even dragons are given elemental types but not alightment types.

regardless tho, just because a creature is evil doesn't mean that you don't require proof of evil doings in order to be within the law...