More Flails, Maces & MorningStars Questions - Descriptions

[Knight Otu]

a) I don't know what 'FWIW' stands for (and I'm on the internet? How dare I?!)

For what it's worth.

what do "Blk" and "Raveller" refer to?

No idea on raveller, but Blk should be Blackguard.

 

[ElectricDragon]

I have no option to post a reply to your review where consumers would see it; though I think RW and others do. I think .pdf's can be pretty easily changed, but I've been having problems getting in touch with the people who could do that.

FWIW is "for what its worth".

Blk is Blackguard
Raveller is a PrC from Spiked Chain. I will take your suggestions to heart and hopefully get some changes...

I'd say Instant Grab is right up there in usefulness with Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Discern Lies (for Paladin), Command Plants, Neutralize Poison, and Remove Disease (for Rangers). All these spells are not commonly memorized unless specific knowledge of upcoming situations is known. Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, and sometimes Remove Curse can often be memorized after the fact to clear up that condition problem. But unless you know that you are going up against a liar, a poisonous creature, or a plant creature the other three are only so much baggage. With its versatility, Instant Grab offers a package of uses operatable as an immediate action choice. But again, that is my opinion. In my opinion, Ranger and Paladin spells of all levels are weak and mostly pointless unless the party has no other casters.

Disarm: okay, I see your point. A 3rd level fighter has a chance to not disarm, but he also has the hp and AC to withstand having to try more than once. Realize that at 3rd level only one creature can be affected, at 4-5th level only two creatures are possible, at 6-7th level 3 creatures, up to the max of 5 at 10th level. It affects no more creatures than Magic Missile and does no damage. Both are Force effects, both allow no save, one deals damage and one disarms.
I am thinking of changing the spell to affect all weapons of all kinds if one target (large or smaller creatures), and only one weapon/creature if multiple targets (not double or two-handed weapons, medium or smaller creatures) and reduce the area to 10-ft. radius. Allowing a save would make this non-damaging, non condition-altering spell useless. e.g. I cast it at the ogre: he saves, I die. Or I cast it at those two goblins, one saves and keeps me busy until they can both gang up on me. At least with Magic Missile, I could probably kill one goblin. A Fort save would mean the spell would hardly ever work against the people who are really dangerous with weapons in their hands.
A 3rd level TWF can disarm another TWF of both weapons in one round.
As an offense, this spell could allow the caster to disarm several opponents while the tanks charged in to combat. Making the opponents provoke an AoO for retrieving the weapon or backstepping to draw another weapon would be the caster's contribution to the battle. Why is this overpowered vs. dealing auto damage to each opponent instead. I have no problem changing things I've made up but I want to understand why first.

The Painted Witch Doctor's prereqs allow a human to take the class at 2nd level, not so any other race. The painted witch doctor is not the tribal leader (except in spiritual matters), the chieftain still rules; in fact, the PWD often sets himself up separate from the tribe to better commune with the spirits. So, if the tribe's lair is attacked, he still has some time to prepare before either he joins the battle or it comes to him. Nevertheless, he should have his own guards and apprentices. The human barbarian "witch doctor" in my honest opinion is best defined by the Adept NPC class or the Spirit Shaman class (from Complete Divine). This one was made for those uncivilized, tribal humanoids that don't fit into respectible society like the human barbarian often does.

Darkness Domain: I agree that the darkness spell should have been on the list, but since it actually creates shadowy illumination instead of true darkness I can see the reasoning. In true darkness, a darkness spell would allow limited normal vision in a 40-ft. diameter and double that for low-light vision.

I'm now off to find a scanner if possible. I enjoyed this and hope to get some edits in for FMM soon. I am not trying to change your opinion of anything in the book but rather to explain how I see it instead.

Again, I enjoyed this discussion.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

I have no option to post a reply to your review where consumers would see it; though I think RW and others do. I think .pdf's can be pretty easily changed, but I've been having problems getting in touch with the people who could do that.

I thought anyone could reply to a review.

FWIW is "for what its worth".

Blk is Blackguard
Raveller is a PrC from Spiked Chain. I will take your suggestions to heart and hopefully get some changes...

Thanks! (you too, KO2)

I'd say Instant Grab is right up there in usefulness with Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Curse, Discern Lies (for Paladin), Command Plants, Neutralize Poison, and Remove Disease (for Rangers). All these spells are not commonly memorized unless specific knowledge of upcoming situations is known. Remove Blindness/Deafness, Remove Disease, and sometimes Remove Curse can often be memorized after the fact to clear up that condition problem. But unless you know that you are going up against a liar, a poisonous creature, or a plant creature the other three are only so much baggage. With its versatility, Instant Grab offers a package of uses operatable as an immediate action choice. But again, that is my opinion. In my opinion, Ranger and Paladin spells of all levels are weak and mostly pointless unless the party has no other casters.

You have some good points, and maybe the overall weakness of Ranger and Paladin spells are throwing me off. When I look for spells for those classes, I more often than not look in other sources for better or more useful spells.

Disarm: okay, I see your point. A 3rd level fighter has a chance to not disarm, but he also has the hp and AC to withstand having to try more than once. Realize that at 3rd level only one creature can be affected, at 4-5th level only two creatures are possible, at 6-7th level 3 creatures, up to the max of 5 at 10th level. It affects no more creatures than Magic Missile and does no damage. Both are Force effects, both allow no save, one deals damage and one disarms.

Magic Missle is pretty minor damage, and it does allow SR. If Power World Disarm is used as an offensive spell by a back-line Wizard casting it to help a front line Fighter to affect a single enemy, the enemy loses a full round of attacks, suffers a -1 penalty, and provokes an AoO. That's a lot.

Also, it occured to me: what if the enemy is using a shield as a weapon? Even if he's not, a shield can be used as a weapon. Would this spell apply to shields?

I am thinking of changing the spell to affect all weapons of all kinds if one target (large or smaller creatures), and only one weapon/creature if multiple targets (not double or two-handed weapons, medium or smaller creatures) and reduce the area to 10-ft. radius. Allowing a save would make this non-damaging, non condition-altering spell useless. e.g. I cast it at the ogre: he saves, I die. Or I cast it at those two goblins, one saves and keeps me busy until they can both gang up on me. At least with Magic Missile, I could probably kill one goblin. A Fort save would mean the spell would hardly ever work against the people who are really dangerous with weapons in their hands.

A Will save might make more sense.

Thing is, in my opinion, as a defensive spell, a Fort save would make this a pretty weak spell (though, could be 1st or 2nd level), and as an offensive spell, no save makes it too powerful. As a defensive spell, a 15' radius might be justified, but as an offensive spell, being able to affect multiple people makes it too powerful (particularly without a save). I don't think changing it to 10' makes a huge difference. The problem is that this spell can be used offensively about as easily as it can be used defensively.

And remember, this spell works just as easily on BBEGs as it does mooks. Forcing the BBEG to drop his super-cool weapon (heck, forcing a Balor to drop all of his weapons) or to drop his staff (if you apply that proposed change) is pretty significant.

The Painted Witch Doctor's prereqs allow a human to take the class at 2nd level, not so any other race. The painted witch doctor is not the tribal leader (except in spiritual matters), the chieftain still rules; in fact, the PWD often sets himself up separate from the tribe to better commune with the spirits.

In some tribal societies, the witch doctor is the leader. Just because the flavor text in your description doesn't allow for that doesn't mean it can't happen.

So, if the tribe's lair is attacked, he still has some time to prepare before either he joins the battle or it comes to him. Nevertheless, he should have his own guards and apprentices. The human barbarian "witch doctor" in my honest opinion is best defined by the Adept NPC class or the Spirit Shaman class (from Complete Divine). This one was made for those uncivilized, tribal humanoids that don't fit into respectible society like the human barbarian often does.

As I said earlier, I dont' think it's inconceivable that a PC would make a witch doctor character and want to take this PrC. Since that's the stance I took with this, the long preparation times are pretty ridiculous.

And I don't think the Adept NPC or the Spirit Shaman are nearly as neat as the human barbarian "witch doctor," and I can imagine a Human wanting to specialize in a class similar to this. I'm not sure what makes Humans different from other Humanoids in this regard, in your opinion, but I think a savage Human tribe can exist in the same manner as an Orc savage tribe. Tribal Humans don't necessarily fit into respectable society. One of the reasons I like the Human race is because they're diverse.

Darkness Domain: I agree that the darkness spell should have been on the list, but since it actually creates shadowy illumination instead of true darkness I can see the reasoning. In true darkness, a darkness spell would allow limited normal vision in a 40-ft. diameter and double that for low-light vision.

Just an idea, but you could asterisk (or similar) anything that comes from the SRD, for reference.

I'm now off to find a scanner if possible. I enjoyed this and hope to get some edits in for FMM soon. I am not trying to change your opinion of anything in the book but rather to explain how I see it instead.

Again, I enjoyed this discussion.

And, hopefully, you can understand how I see it as well. Sure, one function of reviews is to explain to customers what the product is, and there are many functions of reviews, but one of them is to show how some customers think/would think about various aspects of the game and various aspects of the product. I try to have well thought-out reviews, and I usually print hard copies of the products so I can scribble notes all over it (which I recently found useful in explaining my logic to you).

Likewise, this discussion has been useful to me to try to see things in a different light--I try to be open-minded and consider different possibilities, but I can't think of everything. A sounding board is nice to have, and I usually don't discuss specifics with my friends because that'd require giving them or showing them my copy of the products, and I worry about the legality of it all. I'd rather convince them to buy the product, but I need a review to do that with.

Thanks for the points! That's why such discussions, such threads, and such forums are so useful. It would be neat if publishers could link related threads from the product page. There's a 'Read the Reviews!' link, maybe there could be a 'Join the Discussion!' link as well.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Arrg. I have been to the reviews section many times and have failed to see the "Post Comments" button at the bottom. Several times I was actually looking for something like that. Paint me green and call me a newbie.

I will post some comments tomorrow or so (probably just copy/paste something from here). Thanks for the info.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

Arrg. I have been to the reviews section many times and have failed to see the "Post Comments" button at the bottom. Several times I was actually looking for something like that. Paint me green and call me a newbie.

You've been here (and in the business) longer than I have. I just think it's funny.

 

[ElectricDragon]

By the way,the preparation of the painted face abilities is tied to the Disguise skill and the maximum of its time to put on a disguise (1d3x10 minutes). I limited the duration because my thoughts were that a death gaze for hours at a time was too much. Gaze attacks require opponents within range to save versus it on their turn and on the Witch Doctor's turn he can actively use the gaze as a standard attack action against one opponent. Meaning it is possible to have to save versus the gaze twice in one round.

What would be your suggestion for changing the prep time and duration of the face painting abilities?

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

Going back to my notes, I wrote "durations too short or too long to activate."

Paralyzing Face (as the middle-of-the-road example): 30 minute application time for an ability that lasts 2 minutes/level, so no more than 20 minutes. I thought that was pretty crazy.

I theorized that if the Painted Witch Doctor always had his face painted (or usually; either way pretty reasonable, I think), then the painted face abilities could be extra/special dyes/patterns put on the face at the last minute. It would have an application time of 'one round' (not 'full round action', but the full round) and it provokes an AoO (I think that's pretty obvious), and the xp cost is already a mitigating factor. I might double the xp cost, but I'm not sure that's necessary.

With the note I wrote, I'd also be okay with a long activation time, but the ability lasts hours/level, or the full day, or somesuch (since the paint is still there).

Did you have any other ideas?

 

[ElectricDragon]

I think you are right, after re-looking at it. Actually, you nailed the two choices I saw. I prefer to stay with the long application times (though maybe go with the Disguise ability's application time of 1d3x10 minutes) and increase the duration accordingly. Let's see, how about: 2 hours/level for fear and paralyze; 1 hour/level for petrify and kill. That means that when you get the abilities; the face lasts for 6 hours, 10 hours, 7 hours, or 10 hours, respectively. With max times of 20 hours or 10 hours.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

That looks just fine to me. I want to look at Death Gaze one more time, but I think it's okay.

 

[ElectricDragon]

Okay, I posted a reply to your review (mainly cut and paste from this thread). But now my problem is: Where did it go? I can't seem to find my comments anywhere or even a button that leads to such. Am I blind? Is the button some weird color that appears invisible to my vision? Did I just post a message into the void? I think I need my valiums.

Ciao
Dave