More Flails, Maces & MorningStars Questions - Descriptions

[sjmiller]

I’ve been reading through E.N. Arsenal – Flails, Maces & MorningStars, and I am a bit confused by some of the descriptions (or lack thereof). Under the Variants section there is a weapon called a Flail-Mace. The description of the weapon, in part, says:

The head of the mace is square-shaped with a chain link attached to the centre of each side. This chain link leads down into the interior of the shaft. When the ring is turned to unlock the head; the head springs free of the shaft and separates into four separate heads. The heads are half spheres; with the flat parts becoming the outside of the mace head. When locked as a mace; the four heads fit snugly together along their curved sides to form a cube.

The bold parts are what have me confused. I’ve tried to work this out in my head, and even tried to figure it out using some paper cutouts. Geometry seems to tell me that this description is not possible. I can see it working if the heads were diamond-shaped, or even if the outer face was rounded and each head formed a quarter of a sphere. Am I missing something here, or is the description just not practical?

I’ll skip over the Godentag, since I could spend quite some time on this. Let’s just say that the description given doesn’t match any of the archeological evidence I have seen for the weapon.

The King’s Walking Stick has me rather baffled. There seems to be no description of this at all! This is a weapon that, more than any of the others, needs a description and illustration to make it useful. Where do the pistols fit into this thing? How many pistols are there? How are they loaded?

Speaking of loading, these pistols must have some gigantic barrels if the ammunition information means anything. It says that a bag of lead shot weighs 5 pounds, and that there are 10 round per bag. That means they weigh about half a pound per shot. Since lead runs at about 0.41 pounds per cubic inch, that means each round is close to a cubic inch in size. That means the caliber of the round is well over .90, and the biggest caliber musket ball I could find was in the .70 to .75 range. If the round is .90 caliber, that means the inside diameter of the barrel is 0.9 inches! That’s huge!

The Mace-Axe isn’t quite as confusing, but I want to make sure I am seeing this right. The weapon description says:

This strange weapon looks much like a battle axe with a half-sphere attached on either side of the axe-blade allowing the weapon to both cleave and crush.

Now, am I right in thinking that it looks rather like a ball with two axe-heads sticking out of it? So, to effectively use the mace aspect of the weapon one would turn the weapon so that you hit with the flat of the blade and the ball as well, right? Does this make sense?

I am trying really hard to like this book, but there are aspects like those described above that are making that a difficult task.

 

[Jdvn1]

This thread used to have a better description by RW... now the product isn't even on ENGS anymore.

 

[Knight Otu]

This thread used to have a better description by RW... now the product isn't even on ENGS anymore.

Unless it was fixed after your post, the similar products bar links right to it.

Ah, and lets' try this affiliate thing just for the fun of it. Here's another link.

 

[Jdvn1]

Ah, hm, well it doesn't show up here:
http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?do=category&categoryid=83
Like you'd think it would.

Also the "Read the Reviews" link for for page you linked to doesn't show reviews for the product... I'm trying to add my own review, and there's usually a handy link to it somewhere.

It'd still like RW's descriptions again, though! They were better than in the product itself.

 

[Knight Otu]

Ah, hm, well it doesn't show up here:
http://shop.enworld.org/index.php?do=category&categoryid=83
Like you'd think it would.

Also the "Read the Reviews" link for for page you linked to doesn't show reviews for the product... I'm trying to add my own review, and there's usually a handy link to it somewhere.

It'd still like RW's descriptions again, though! They were better than in the product itself.

Interesting, it also seems to not be in the list of covers for E.N.Publishing. But it is part of the Arsenal bundle, and on the list of all E.N.Publishing products below the bundles.

 

[Jdvn1]

Yeah, I figured RW would, at least, want to know about this (since it could conceivably affect sales), and I mentioned it in a thread in Meta, but I'm not sure who'd be the one to look into/fix that.

 

[ElectricDragon]

The two reviews of the product disappeared when the boards went down last time. Unfortunately, I did not make copies of the reviews, so there is nothing I can do about it.

I can answer the OP again, though if that would help.

As far as the Flail-Mace, I had a friend of mine do some 3-d drawings of it where it did seem to work. I am not good at any kind of pics, nor do I know how to add them to posts; but I will try to figure it out, scan the pic, and add it to this post if I can. (Scanning will be the first problem).

Godentag: This book is not an actual historical reference, some changes had to be made for the sake of the game. The godentag and godendag though similar in name were actually different weapons and both were called by either name. The one presented in the book is described as mace-like with a longer handle and an enlongated spike on top of the mace-head (or in some descriptions hammer-head). It was first used by Flemish militia to take out mounted French knights, often doubling as an anti-charge weapon. The weapon could be used one-handed but was actually mostly used two-handed because of the long handle. The French took the weapon home with them. For game terms, I had to go with one-handed for my godentag or come up with a special rule for allowing it to be used one-handed. The other weapon, the axe-pike-pick version, was also used against the French by the Flemish, it was specifically a two-handed weapon.

The king's walking stick is an actual weapon (for which I could not find any pictures only descriptions) called King Henry's Walking Stick. I had to drop the real-world reference to Henry but otherwise kept it the same. The weights are not real-world weights but a holdover from 1e-2e where weight and encumbrance were combined according to how difficult the item was to store and carry: e.g. a 10-lb. block of wood would weigh less than a 10-lb. door by basis of how hard it was to carry.
The weight of the lead shots are only a close approximation, closely aligned to the sling bullet and the information I used from EN Arsenal, Pistols.
The number of pistols can be figured from the amount of extra cash it would take to make each pistol masterwork (+1200 gp, or 4); but that should have been mentioned specifically in the description. Sorry, silly me.

Mace-Axe: You could turn the weapon sideways to deal non-lethal or subdual damage just like with a sword. But the axeblade cleaves into the target while the spheres crush the area around the wound dealing both damages at once. The weapon is not listed as slashing or bludgeoning.

I hope this helped you.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

Thanks Dave!

Mine was one of the two reviews before the crash, I believe, and I recently found it and added it back today. The mace-flail, for example, has a kind of awkward description in the text, in my opinion, and I remember that being addressed with a better description in a thread on here... I thought it was by RW, but I'm probably mistaken.

Though, if you can get it up, a picture would be very useful (I also mention in my review that there should be a picture of such things), and hopefully your friend can help you with that.

 

[ElectricDragon]

FWIW: the spell Weeping Wounds as well as the Ripping ability came from EN Arsenal, Spiked Chain. I missed the reference to the spell or the spell would have been included, too.

Weeping Wounds
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Blk 1, Raveller 1
Components: V, S, F/DF
Casting Time: 1 standard action
Range: Close (25 ft. + 5 ft. / 2 levels)
Effect: Ray
Duration: 2 rounds/level
Saving Throw: None
Spell Resistance: Yes
This spell accelerates injuries with small amounts of negative energy.
By infecting the target with a minute amount of negative energy, this spell accelerates injuries to living tissue and makes wounds more serious. Even a small scratch from a spike can be made to bleed more heavily, the flesh around it turning septic as the spell works its dark magic.
A ranged touch attack must be made against the subject. If successful, the subject will take an additional 1d6 damage every time it takes damage from any weapon or
non-energy damage source for the duration of the spell.
This spell has no effect on undead, constructs, animated objects, outsiders and oozes.
Arcane Focus: A ragged and rough spike, knife or saw.

The Instant Grab spell does have its uses. Starting a grapple without provoking an AoO and gaining a +6 bonus the initial round is powerful for an immediate action spell. The option to also use this spell to negate having to have a ring of feather falling on your finger or to be able to catch your falling comrade is also useful. The 2nd and 3rd uses of the spell probably should have been combined into one use, as their effects and duration are the same; but one incorporates a virtual feat while the other does not. Only if you consider the Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows feats too weak should this option be considered useless.

Power Word Disarm can only affect up to 5 large size or smaller creatures (if the caster is at least 10th level and all the creatures are in a 15-ft-radius and all hold one-handed or smaller weapons). A 3rd level fighter with the Improved Disarm feat can easily disarm someone each round. Why is this spell overpowered? This is a defensive spell for the "Oops they ran past the fighter and are all charging me! What do I do with no armor and no hp" situation. Does it stop anyone? No, it only slows them down to give the caster time to get up a defense or to run away to a safer area. It does not affect two-handed weapons or double weapons so that minotaur with the greataxe is still coming even if his companions all dropped their morningstars. You are right that I should have addressed the gauntlet issue. How about this: "A gauntlet, a spiked gauntlet, or any weapon in a locked gauntlet cannot be affected by this spell."

The Darkness domain is in the SRD in the Divine section, as are the "Darkness" spells. Most people do not realize that there are other spells and domains in that section and so we reprinted it.

The painted witch doctor should have had this line also: "Race: Any giant, humanoid (except humans) or monstrous humanoid." It makes a big difference as to what level the PrC can be taken at.

I won't apologise for the painted face abilities. If the goblin can arrange it to use those abilities in combat; he will be a force to be reckoned with; if not, he can fall back on his Imbue Badge ability to make fear/paralyze/petrify/death touch attacks for up to 10 rounds at a time. If he has taken the time (and who wouldn't) that morning to bind a spirit into his badge, he has a magic weapon for free to help deal those attacks and provide self- or tribal-healing of various types. Yes his caster level for his spells is limited to 10th; I don't see that as a problem for a tribal caster. He will always have mook backup as well as more powerful warriors, maybe even an adept or two, and (in the case of goblins) possibly a blue. Add in traps, forced and limited trail possibilities, and ambushes; and perhaps he does have time to "put on his face" before battle after all.

The shadow lord: originally the flail stopped at +4 because it gained reach (an ability not available for the mace). After several rounds of edits, the flail also lost a point of enchantment to gain the reach; so it should have been reinstated to +5 max. Probably like this: 3rd:+1, 4th:+2, 6th:+3, 8th:+4, 10th:+5.

The handle of the flail-mace is a hollow metal tube in which the chain is stored while in mace form. A strong spring mechanism at the top of the tube helps push the balls and chain out when changing to flail, also allowing the weapon to be used as an impromptu ranged weapon. A collar at the tube top can be turned to either lock the mace heads together or to release them so the spring pushes them out. Threading the chains back into the tube and pushing the heads into place while turning the collar to the locking position takes more time and effort than releasing them. This should probably have been listed as a gnomish device; I don't know why I didn't think of that before now, except that would make most of the small sized.

I meant to get back to this yesterday to give you better descriptions for your review but real life has a habit of jumping in the way sometimes.

If there is anything else you would like to know or if this is not enough, let me know and I'll try to add more.

Ciao
Dave

 

[Jdvn1]

I'd like to start by saying that a) I don't know what 'FWIW' stands for (and I'm on the internet? How dare I?!), b) I didn't expect a response to the review since it's inherently largely opinion and not meant to be necessarily definitive, and c) if there were to be a response, a direct response to the review would probably be better, since I don't expect everyone who reads the review to come into this forum (this is a relatively low traffic forum) and such a discussion is, in theory, to the benefit of a would-be consumer reading the review.

But, if you want to talk about it, let's talk about it.

FWIW: the spell Weeping Wounds as well as the Ripping ability came from EN Arsenal, Spiked Chain. I missed the reference to the spell or the spell would have been included, too.

Weeping Wounds
Necromancy
Level: Sor/Wiz 1, Blk 1, Raveller 1

Thanks for including the spell. It doesn't change my opinion of the pdf since I tend to consider such an item being taken as-is. If you supplemented the pdf with such relevant information, that'd certainly be cool. Also, if you included this spell, I'd have to ask--what do "Blk" and "Raveller" refer to? You might want to drop those from your description, or have a note saying "These classes presented in (this other work)."

The Instant Grab spell does have its uses. Starting a grapple without provoking an AoO and gaining a +6 bonus the initial round is powerful for an immediate action spell. The option to also use this spell to negate having to have a ring of feather falling on your finger or to be able to catch your falling comrade is also useful. The 2nd and 3rd uses of the spell probably should have been combined into one use, as their effects and duration are the same; but one incorporates a virtual feat while the other does not. Only if you consider the Deflect Arrows/Snatch Arrows feats too weak should this option be considered useless.

That's true. Part of my logic was based on the fact that it's extremely rare (in my experience, at least) for a Paladin to have a hand free, much less two (for grappling).

And, remember, Paladin 3 / Ranger 3? You expect these classes to use what is probably their only spell at 11th level on this? I think this spell is marginally useful, but I wouldn't ever expect anyone to actually prepare this spell in one of his slots, much less a high level slot.

Though, that's my opinion. Yours obviously varies. In the review, I tried to have a disclaimer about different opinions of spell level.

Power Word Disarm can only affect up to 5 large size or smaller creatures (if the caster is at least 10th level and all the creatures are in a 15-ft-radius and all hold one-handed or smaller weapons). A 3rd level fighter with the Improved Disarm feat can easily disarm someone each round. Why is this spell overpowered?

Because it's multiple people at once, there's no save (a 3rd level Fighter with the Improved Disarm feat still has to roll and has a chance of failure), it forces the defender to drop all weapons (a 3rd level Fighter can't disarm both of a TWFers weapons in a round, to my knowledge), it causes a penalty to the defender (again, no save, and this is now more powerful than a Disarm), and it works against incorporeal creatures (still with no save).

This is a defensive spell for the "Oops they ran past the fighter and are all charging me! What do I do with no armor and no hp" situation. Does it stop anyone? No, it only slows them down to give the caster time to get up a defense or to run away to a safer area.

You could see it that way... but what if it's used in an offensive manner? "Oh, there's a platoon of Fighters fighting my guards... thank goodness I don't need to be a high level Wizard to make them all useless in a single round." If it were only a defensive spell used in the occasion a baddie got past the tank, it wouldn't be a 15' radius sphere.

Again, my opinion.

It does not affect two-handed weapons or double weapons so that minotaur with the greataxe is still coming even if his companions all dropped their morningstars. You are right that I should have addressed the gauntlet issue. How about this: "A gauntlet, a spiked gauntlet, or any weapon in a locked gauntlet cannot be affected by this spell."

I'd rather the spell affect two-handed weapons if it meant that it'd have a save (Fort) and only affect one target.

The Darkness domain is in the SRD in the Divine section, as are the "Darkness" spells. Most people do not realize that there are other spells and domains in that section and so we reprinted it.

Ah, I knew that, but I forgot it. I expect products to only assume the three core books, and so I didn't think to look in the SRD. I should have mentioned that the domain comes from there, but I can still give my opinion of it, can't I? I do think it's odd that it doesn't have the Darkness spell. It was a minor comment, anyway.

The painted witch doctor should have had this line also: "Race: Any giant, humanoid (except humans) or monstrous humanoid." It makes a big difference as to what level the PrC can be taken at.

That's a shame, I thought the idea of a Human barbarian tribe would be neat. I'm not sure it makes a significant different, balance-wise, though.

I won't apologise for the painted face abilities.

And I don't expect you to. I don't expect everyone's opinion to mesh with my own. I don't think it's inconceivable that a PC would take this class, and that's the assumption I took.

he does have time to "put on his face" before battle after all.

It still takes a mighty long time. I'd imagine a tribal leader such as him would have other things to worry about.

The shadow lord: originally the flail stopped at +4 because it gained reach (an ability not available for the mace). After several rounds of edits, the flail also lost a point of enchantment to gain the reach; so it should have been reinstated to +5 max. Probably like this: 3rd:+1, 4th:+2, 6th:+3, 8th:+4, 10th:+5.

Oh, okay. Interesting.

The handle of the flail-mace is a hollow metal tube in which the chain is stored while in mace form. A strong spring mechanism at the top of the tube helps push the balls and chain out when changing to flail, also allowing the weapon to be used as an impromptu ranged weapon. A collar at the tube top can be turned to either lock the mace heads together or to release them so the spring pushes them out. Threading the chains back into the tube and pushing the heads into place while turning the collar to the locking position takes more time and effort than releasing them. This should probably have been listed as a gnomish device; I don't know why I didn't think of that before now, except that would make most of the small sized.

Well, small sized weapons can be found in other sizes anyway. Good description, and I look forward to seeing a picture (if you're able to do that).

I meant to get back to this yesterday to give you better descriptions for your review but real life has a habit of jumping in the way sometimes.

If there is anything else you would like to know or if this is not enough, let me know and I'll try to add more.

No, that's more than I expected. I didn't expect a response at all. I'm not sure what the review-ettiquette stance on edits are, but I think comments are probably more common to include information like the above. I could, alternately, put in bracketed edits to include some some of the stuff (particularly the information on the Shadow Lord's flail). Are erattas common in the world of pdf's? I'm not sure what your options are as far as informing the masses of possible fixes.