More frustration with KotS

[Herobizkit]

Now, before I start, I know that at least some of the issue is my expectation of what the module is supposed to represent in the way of a balanced combat. But here’s where we’re at.

Party of six PC’s: 3 strikers, 2 leaders, 1 defender

Current Level: 4 (DM inflated XP for us to level faster)

Last night, in Area 13 of level 2, our combat took FIVE HOURS to finish.

I couldn’t believe it. I couldn’t figure out what happened. We were playing defensively, as the Hobgoblin Warriors were upping each other’s AC to 26-28 range. Only the minions and one of the Warcasters failed to hit us as *every* other attack roll was in the 22-28 range.

I admit, as a long-time DM (20+) years, I’m trying to play against “the module” versus “the DM”. So when I’m given this dilemma, I asked the DM flat out, “Did you add monsters to the battle?”

He said, “No.”

I’ve also caught him fudging die rolls before (And I know every DM fudges here and there, but it seems he always fudges in favor of the enemies) and the DM has admitted that he feels like a failure if he doesn’t make every fight a challenge. I’ve already explained to him that the pre-gen fights are deliberately set up so that most are equal level, one or two really hard, and a few really easy for variety.

But given that the PC group is now 4th level, almost all of the figjhts should go fairly quickly.

And so, with doubts, I did what every player shouldn’t do – looked up the fight.

As it turns out:

a) He DID, in fact, add more monsters –

Spoiler

we faced three warcasters to the combat’s one. He also added 2 non-minion hobgoblin soliders.

b) He’s doing the hobgoblin phalanx math incorrectly -

Spoiler

A hobgoblin is supposed to get +2 AC when a hobgoblin is adjacent, not +2 AC for every hobgoblin adjacent.

Now, I’m left with two options.

a) Call him out on his choices.
b) Grin and bear it.

Given that he’s new to DMing, and the other two players are new to the system (as am I), what am I to do?

At this rate, we may out level the Thunderspire Labyrinth before we even get to it, and his solution will be “more monsters” every time.

… Augh!

 

[RangerWickett]

I don't recommend lying. But if you want to avoid revealing that you looked up the adventure, you could just say that you vented about how hard the fight was online, and someone else told you that the module had fewer foes.

 

[CAFRedblade]

While 5 hours does seem long, keep in mind that a few things.

Keep in mind that you have a larger than normal party, and potentially higher than normal level for that area, and if he's compensating for that using the guidelines, then while directly comparing the standard fight to what was in play may seem out of sorts, maybe he's scaled it up appropriately.

Also, while it's been quite awhile since I ran KotS, perhaps he downloaded the updated version from the Wizards site, which modifies some of the encounters, or you are comparing that one to the original print version, which may differ.

And if you think he is misinterpreting the phalanx ability, ask him out of game about it, and see if you can clarify the issue, or perhaps he can clarify if he's customized things to work differently.

I had only 5 people at that point so things rand smoothly but adding players beyond 5 can increase combat time significantly, I ran most of Thunderspire and Pyramid with 7 players. In heroic, and combat could take 5-6 hours, spread out over two nights.

* oh and you didn't happen to pull the Area 14 fight into area 13?

 

[Dice4Hire]

I hope I do not run into such troubles with the game I am playing in. Thus far it is going well.

 

[Rechan]

Well I'm guessing it took 5 hours because he was 1) adding soldiers (routinely hard to hit) and 2) misinterpreting a power which was giving them fat AC.

Did he not accept your offer to co-DM?

 

[Herobizkit]

We're going to slog out the rest of the adventure, then decide where to go from there. He seems excited about running Thunderspire Labyrinth. We're still getting more monster/higher XP. Of a party of 6, we received ~600 xp apiece... I know the original encounter was less than a grand in XP.

I guess it's just wanting to play the adventure unmodified, but also playing with xp hungry players who want to get to level 30 by April.

 

[Dice4Hire]

but also playing with xp hungry players who want to get to level 30 by April.

Must be nice to play daily

 

[Herobizkit]

Must be nice to play daily

Heh, I wish. Sort of. We play once a week if we're lucky.

Also, I see what you did there.

 

[Obryn]

(1) The adventure is written for 5, not 6, characters. It's expected a DM will have to add monsters to encounters to compensate for larger or higher-leveled parties. If he's leveled you early for whatever reason, you can expect stuff to be harder.

(2) The DM isn't constrained to an adventure's limitations. DMs are encouraged to change around adventures to suit their groups - otherwise players can do stuff like, I dunno, looking up adventures. Unless you're doing some kind of restricted organized play, the module as written doesn't need to have any bearing to the module as played.

If you and the group are not having fun, address that actual situation. The problem isn't that he's changing the adventure. IMO, that's pretty much never the problem, particularly when you guys are higher level and more numerous than the adventure requires. The problem is that he's doing it in a way which you guys aren't finding fun.

Talk to each other like mature gamers, get to the bottom of the real issue, and start having fun.

-O

 

[TerraDave]

Right, you were higher level and a bigger party, so the DM had to boost the encounter, but he should have done so differentlty.

And 5 hours is nuts. I had a 15 round mondo mega big bad guy combat recently. It did not take 5 hours. Note also that fighters get longer as you level, on average. This problem will get worse.

You are touching on many issues, which include but are not limited to everyone getting there offense better and looking at why rounds are taking so long.

One tip is for the DM to make sure he is using current monster math and the monster builder to boost monsters to match the party level (which is real easy to do).

Also, are you guys using a lot of interupts or have defensive builds? Stop it. Seriously. Make offense the priority, then maybe look at defense. Its much funner for everyone.