More frustration with KotS

[Riastlin]

Honestly, there are a lot of issues with this group, and I think if you are going to enjoy the group, you'll need to sit down with all of them and have a conversation.

Running two characters each in 4ed is bad. There are a lot of options with just one PC and adding another makes it that much worse. This problem is only going to multiply as you gain levels (and thus more options) too.

The DM is misinterpreting (in my opinion) the hobgoblin trait, and so their AC shouldn't be that high. Aside from that though, and without looking at the actual critters, adding more monsters is generally speaking, a way to account for a larger group that is also higher level -- of course adding soldiers is often less than helpful, but this is something that can take DMs a little while to realize. The problem with just running the encounters as written is that your group should then just blow through them. This will make you happy, but at the same time, Mr. XP will not be happy when he simply receives a pittance for his trouble. Making it unfun for him in order to be fun for you will only end up putting the group in the same place it is now (just a different annoyed person). This is the trouble DMs face when dealing with players who have different interests.

All that being said, one potential option for resolution here would be to simply drop XP altogether and have the DM just tell the group when they level. 4ed doesn't really require the tracking of XP since there are no spells, rituals, powers, etc., that cost XP. Mr. XP can still level quickly (if the DM decides that is good) but encounters can be scaled down so that they can run faster.

As for companions, you are right about the rules. Typically the DM creates the companion, but the players run the character (easing the DM's burden). Thing is, adding companions will only work if you first drop the second PC.

 

[Klaus]

I love this idea.

Now convince my other two players to drop a character... because if we're having this hard of a time with 6 characters, we'll never win fights with 3 (plus Splug *lol*). Remember, at this juncture, I'm the only one who knows the DM is upping the ante behind the screen.

Who would YOU drop?

The pairings:

> Defender, Striker: Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Assassin
> Leader, Striker: Goliath Cleric, Thri-Kreen Monk
> Leader, Striker: Dwarven Runepriest, Warforged Warlock (replacing with Witch at 5th)

From what little RP we've been able to do:
* the Assassin, Cleric and Warlock have the more prominent personalities
* there's a real "Bromance" between the Paladin and Cleric (they both Worship Bahamut)
* The Assassin and Paladin are at odds with each other's attitudes
* The Warlock kept being called a "robot" and that is now part of his shtick.

From a tactical standpoint:
* the Paladin and the Runepriest are the ones who take most of the punishment, except when...
* the Assassin or Monk go to single out a target and get mobbed.
* The Warforged is a ranged striker and never enters melee, but has the highest Knowledge skills.
* The Runepriest was designed to be more offensive, but always ends up on defense.

From a player standpoint:
* the Paladin/Assassin player usually takes the longest to decide which option to take, hates being rushed, and usually jumps the gun with one of his PCs and gets swatted down for it EVERY fight.
* The Cleric/Monk player "panics" whenever his characters enters melee.
* The Runepriest/Warlock player tends to miss opponents. A lot.

Lots to think about.

I'd keep:

Dragonborn Paladin
Goliath Cleric
Warforged Warlock

From a combat, roleplaying and tactical standpoint, these work out the best. There's harmony between the divine characters, all of them are durable, and you have a decent split between melee and ranged.

I'd also think about the Warlock and the Cleric players swapping characters (since the Cleric player freaks out with melee, he can take on a ranged striker).

That's not to say it's the end of the other characters. You could have a "secondary party" with the Assassin, Monk and Runepriest splitting off, so you could return to those characters when taking a break from the "main party".

As for the warforged warlock, I'd re-fluff him as an ancient suit of armor inhabited by the spirit of a warlock from ages past (if he's an infernal warlock, he might have escaped Hell). A Lord Soth-type trying to redeem himself.

 

[Herobizkit]

Myself, I see the Paladin, Cleric and Runepriest being the most likely candidates to travel together. Divine connection, plus lots of support with healing. Could be optimized for damage output but wold require co-operation in the re-creation process.

The Assassin, Warlock and Monk are all Strikers. I debated on re-tooling the Warlock as a Hexblade for more melee goodness. Th Warlock could also be re-tooled with some healing powers, the Monk with some Control powers, and the Assassin could max out his teleporting potential.

The issue then becomes "which group do we play" and "when"...

There is no right answer... only what we're going to do.

What if each player re-tooled one of their characters as a Companion?

 

[Klaus]

Myself, I see the Paladin, Cleric and Runepriest being the most likely candidates to travel together. Divine connection, plus lots of support with healing. Could be optimized for damage output but wold require co-operation in the re-creation process.

The Assassin, Warlock and Monk are all Strikers. I debated on re-tooling the Warlock as a Hexblade for more melee goodness. Th Warlock could also be re-tooled with some healing powers, the Monk with some Control powers, and the Assassin could max out his teleporting potential.

The issue then becomes "which group do we play" and "when"...

There is no right answer... only what we're going to do.

What if each player re-tooled one of their characters as a Companion?

Still too much hassle.

And if you go Cleric, Paladin and Runepriest, you have pretty much zero ranged capabilities.

 

[S'mon]

Re which PCs to keep - I'd just go with whichever PC each individual player likes best. A Leader/Defender/Striker trio would be the most well-balanced, but three 5th level PCs fighting 3rd level monsters don't need to be terribly optimised. The only thing I'd advise is keeping a Defender (ie the Paladin) and preferably not going all-Striker. An all-Striker team is the one set-up that is very fragile, with no healing or control ability and very vulnrerable to minions. A Paladin has enough healing for a 3-PC group that you could do without a Leader if necessary.

Edit: As Claudio says, at this point I would go cold-turkey on the multiple PCs, so no Companion NPCs. They can come back in later once things are running smoothly.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Basically I think you guys have run into a sort of perfect storm of ways to slow things down:

1) Playing more than one character really does slow things down. You may not notice this much as a player, but when I had 3 players playing 6 characters at one point things went a LOT slower, even at low levels. You just can't achieve the same level of familiarization and think ahead as well for each one. I think this can easily add 20-30% to combat length.

2) You're playing through KotS, which is an adventure rather known for its sequences of heavy slogging. Especially in the section you're in.

3) The encounter you had problems with is itself probably the sloggiest one in the whole module. Those hobgoblin soldiers linked up using their phalanx are almost the definition of slog. They never move, their defenses are high, they do mediocre damage, and they throw off status effects left and right.

4) The DM is just incorrect about stacking up the Phalanx power's effects, which is just going to make things even sloggier than they were already.

5) Yes, you have 6 PCs but the DM has added at least enough extra stuff to that fight to make up for it from what I can see, so you're really just a larger party fighting a larger encounter.

6) Your party is heavily defensive and lacking any top-tier strikers. Monks and Assassins (of any build), and warlocks for that matter, are all fairly second tier. They're good solid classes, but drop a bow ranger, a thief, a strikery barbarian, etc in there and the pace of damage output will go up a good bit.

5 hours still seems kinda crazy to me, but I wasn't there... I think what generally happens is as you get into one of these slogfest fights people get bored and lose focus and it just gets even slower.

I think other people have made some good suggestions already but IMHO, drop back to 3 PCs and a companion. Get the DM to understand the hobgoblin's phalanx power, drop in a high damage output striker, and make sure the DM isn't stacking up extra slog into encounters. I don't think the DM is bad, but he probably hasn't run 4e and hasn't yet got a good feel for what will speed up or slow down the pace. I think most DMs will fall into slog at first, and KotS isn't exactly a model of the best way to do things.

You may also find that slowing the pace of advancement a bit also helps. When you run your character for a couple fights per level and then advance you can start to outstrip the player's familiarity with their powers and they may not pull their overall tactics together in a solid way very quickly. I think most groups can manage at the standard XP rate to advance a level every 2 weeks as long as the slog is out of the picture.

 

[DEFCON 1]

Myself, I see the Paladin, Cleric and Runepriest being the most likely candidates to travel together. Divine connection, plus lots of support with healing.

Actually, having more healing might cause the exact opposite result if you are hoping to speed up combat. The more healing the group has, the more often the group gets out of danger, the less of a challenge the DM thinks he is throwing at you... and thus the more opponents he adds back in, in the hopes of creating more of a challenge. Thus, the longer the combat remains.

Having a cleric with two Healing Words in addition to each character's Second Wind for three PCs is more than enough healing if you want faster combat.

 

[Ryujin]

I'd go with a 3 character party, for the reasons that others have stated. I would recommend going with the two Strikers and one Leader option (Cleric's grouping), as optimal for a small party, but would recommend a rebuild of the Strikers for more durability, if necessary. It might also help if the Warlock multi-classed as Bard, if CHA based, for some variety in play and support for the Cleric, in an emergency. It's never fun, when your Cleric drops.

 

[Gort]

I just finished a campaign from level 1 to level 30.

The characters were a fighter, a two-weapon ranger, an assassin, and a sorcerer. You don't need a leader at all - just bring enough healing items and you'll be fine.

 

[MerricB]

For a lot of my recent HPE campaign (1-30), we had 3 players, and we ran 3 PCs + Splug as an NPC. I scaled the encounters down, and it worked really well. Towards the end, I didn't even bother scaling the encounters down (due to the problematic balance of high-end 4E).

I strongly recommend you play 1 PC each.

Oh, and Splug works best as a Goblin Thief (from Essentials). Very simple to run, and hugely effective. Saved the group a number of times.

Cheers!