More frustration with KotS

[Herobizkit]

(1) The adventure is written for 5, not 6, characters. It's expected a DM will have to add monsters to encounters to compensate for larger or higher-leveled parties. If he's leveled you early for whatever reason, you can expect stuff to be harder.

(2) The DM isn't constrained to an adventure's limitations. DMs are encouraged to change around adventures to suit their groups - otherwise players can do stuff like, I dunno, looking up adventures. Unless you're doing some kind of restricted organized play, the module as written doesn't need to have any bearing to the module as played.

I am in complete agreement with you; this is how good D&D is run. However...

If you and the group are not having fun, address that actual situation.

I guess I'm the one who isn't having as much fun as the others; in my case, wisdom sucks. I want to get on with the story, be done with KotS, find out what happens next - but I'm the only one. One player wants to level-level-level; the other player is just happy to go along with whatever (I envy him *lol*). I tried to talk the group into skipping the whole second area to get to the "boss level", but level-happy didn't want to miss XP.

I tried to explain that we leveled ahead of the module, and since we're not that strongly tied to the story, moving on would make sense - we'd have little to gain for staying. But because the DM is ramping up fights to make them equal to our level, we get more XP, which keeps us ahead of the module, which makes the DM ramp up the next fight... if we just wrapped this up and moved on, the DM wouldn't HAVE to adjust the fights and everything would be tickety-boo.

If anyone recalls the SNES game "The 7th Saga", it's like that - No matter what level your character grinds to, the enemies are always higher level by default. And this is what I'm trying to avoid.

 

[Herobizkit]

Also, are you guys using a lot of interrupts or have defensive builds? Stop it. Seriously. Make offense the priority, then maybe look at defense. Its much funner for everyone.

We do play fairly defensively, mostly because the DM tends to bloody at least one PC a round if we don't.

Once we hit level 5, however, some changes are coming, mostly revolving around upping our lack of Controller powers.

* The Templar is planning on adding some keep-away powers.
* The Monk is going to add some powers to pinball enemies wherever he likes.
* The Warlock is being swapped to a Witch. AoE damage FTW.

Which means the party will then comprise of:
* Dragonborn Paladin (Cavalier)
* Eladrin Assassin
* Goliath Cleric (Templar)
* Thri-Kreen Monk
* Dwarf Runepriest (Wrathful Hammer)
* Warforged Witch (Full Moon, probably)

 

[GameOgre]

You should drop out. I say that in all honesty. I'm trying not to be tacky but here are my reasons.

1- That group has too many players and a DM that lacks the experience to handle on the fly or even ahead of time alterations so that all involved are happy with fun encounters. This is NOT a attack on your DM. Running games is how you get that experence!

2- You are not having much fun and I hear a undercurent of frustration that can very easily carry over to others and poison the game.

3- You know the adventure and that in and of itself can poison a group if not handled well. you do not seem to be handling it well. Again that isn't a attack. Playing through a adventure you already know and don't realy like can try anyones patiance.

4- You are metagaming hardcore. Even to the point of Violating the player/DM agreement and reading a adventure you are playing. Now I don't understand this one. Thats a dealbreaker in my book but to each his own. Maybe if you were running a game you wouldn't mind a player checking up on you.

Again this can poison the game very easy.



So there you go. My 2 Cents worth of advice. I know it can suck having to drop out of a game but sometimes its for the best.

Besides maybe in a bit they will finish and you can join again with a better outlook and find the game better for it.

 

[GameOgre]

Dang double post!

 

[Herobizkit]

You should drop out. I say that in all honesty. I'm trying not to be tacky but here are my reasons.

1- That group has too many players and a DM that lacks the experience to handle on the fly or even ahead of time alterations so that all involved are happy with fun encounters. This is NOT a attack on your DM. Running games is how you get that experence!

We're only three players plus our DM - we're each running two characters.

2- You are not having much fun and I hear a undercurent of frustration that can very easily carry over to others and poison the game.

Here's where I came from on that front.

The six of us, at level 4, took five hours to beat a fight that a party of five 3rd level characters was expected to beat. Realistically, that fight probably would not have been won by a standard party. If the issue wasn't with our tactics or our characters, then what was it? Either the adventure, or the DM. And the DM told us that he DL's the errata'd adventure from WotC. It just seemed like no matter what we did, every fight was difficult and took forever to resolve.

Now I know why - the DM was adding monsters to up the challenge.

As a long-time DM, I want to wave a flag and advise him that he's on a slippery slope, that adding monsters isn't the way to "fix" the XP/monster spiral.

IMO, keeping the module as is and awarding little to no xp from this point to the next module, is the best way to put things back on track.

3- You know the adventure...

I only know the adventure by reputation and third-party accounts, and I've only physically looked at that encounter after the fact.

4- You are metagaming hardcore. Even to the point of Violating the player/DM agreement and reading a adventure you are playing.

Call it what you want... In addition to learning how to play I'm also trying to learn how to run the 4e engine by proxy, especially if there are plans for me to DM in the new year. I haven't told him yet, and I doubt I'm going to now. I was really angry at first, angry in a way that I shouldn't be when I'm playing a fun game... but that fight wasn't fun. What's more, when I come to realize that the difficulty was completely unnecessary and I'm to expect more of the same, all the time... it will have to be addressed, but not until the module is over.

I won't be dropping from this group. It's my duty as the old guy to usher in the new generation of players. *lol*

 

[Rechan]

We're only three players plus our DM - we're each running two characters.

There's another problem. You're juggling two characters. One is complex enough, but now you have to know two sheets. That's twice the number of decisions each person is making per round, twice the number of powers to interpret.

I'd bet a good 30-45 minutes of your 5 hour combat was just the mental lag of juggling characters.

There are a few ways around the "We have only 3 players". One is likely beyond the newbie because it requires balancing encounters for 3 PCs (not easy). The other is creating companion characters - basically running a monster with a few, simple powers that can be handled easily.

I won't be dropping from this group. It's my duty as the old guy to usher in the new generation of players. *lol*

1) It's not your Duty.

2) EVEN if it is, you don't have to usher in this guy.

3) If you aren't having fun, then it's likely going to poison you to this group/this guy/this system in the future. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

4) The module can be wrapped up in one encounter, by just not having the rest of the dungeon populated. You got to ask yourself what you are letting the DM "learn" by just letting him continue on with the module unabated.

 

[Herobizkit]

I'd bet a good 30-45 minutes of your 5 hour combat was just the mental lag of juggling characters.

I agree 100%.

There are a few ways around the "We have only 3 players". One is likely beyond the newbie because it requires balancing encounters for 3 PCs (not easy). The other is creating companion characters - basically running a monster with a few, simple powers that can be handled easily.

The newbie is experimenting with Companion characters, sort of. The infamous Splug has joined us as a crossbow shooter. The DM is using the monster stat block exactly as is. No big, though I've suggested he look at the rules SEVERAL times to no avail.

The DM has just as much lag trying to juggle his massive army of monsters, then add in the companions, and hoo boy. Now, maybe I'm misunderstanding companions... if the Players each run a Companion...

The heartbreak would come in trying to water down our characters knowing how hard a time we have now. No one wants to break up their respective duos. It was suggested before.

1) It's not your Duty [to usher in a new DM]

No, I know it's not REALLY my duty. But I have been supporting the DM in rules questions and suggestions as we go.

2) EVEN if it is, you don't have to usher in this guy.

Also true. But for now, he IS "the guy" unless stuff changes after Xmas.

3) If you aren't having fun, then it's likely going to poison you to this group/this guy/this system in the future. No gaming is better than bad gaming.

When I wrote my OP, I was coming from a sense of utter frustration that we're not "moving along" and the reason we're not moving along is that the DM is making it harder, not easier, for us to move on. I've mentioned this several times to him as well.

4) The module can be wrapped up in one encounter, by just not having the rest of the dungeon populated. You got to ask yourself what you are letting the DM "learn" by just letting him continue on with the module unabated.

It can, but at least one other player (who is kind of the younger guy's ersatz big brother figure) is the one who wants more fights, more xp. His is the mind I'd have to try and change. First try was a no go.

It's quite the soap opera... and I'm not helping. Bottom line, game on.

 

[S'mon]

Hm - you & your DM can solve ALL your problems by simply having each player drop 1 PC.

You will have 1 5th level PC each: 3 PCs, not 6.
Your DM will no longer have to level up encounters - 3rd level encounters work fine for 3 5th level PCs.
Fights will go by twice as fast.
Profit.

 

[Klaus]

Hm - you & your DM can solve ALL your problems by simply having each player drop 1 PC.

You will have 1 5th level PC each: 3 PCs, not 6.
Your DM will no longer have to level up encounters - 3rd level encounters work fine for 3 5th level PCs.
Fights will go by twice as fast.
Profit.

I completely 100% agree with this.

 

[Herobizkit]

I love this idea.

Now convince my other two players to drop a character... because if we're having this hard of a time with 6 characters, we'll never win fights with 3 (plus Splug *lol*). Remember, at this juncture, I'm the only one who knows the DM is upping the ante behind the screen.

Who would YOU drop?

The pairings:

> Defender, Striker: Dragonborn Paladin, Eladrin Assassin
> Leader, Striker: Goliath Cleric, Thri-Kreen Monk
> Leader, Striker: Dwarven Runepriest, Warforged Warlock (replacing with Witch at 5th)

From what little RP we've been able to do:
* the Assassin, Cleric and Warlock have the more prominent personalities
* there's a real "Bromance" between the Paladin and Cleric (they both Worship Bahamut)
* The Assassin and Paladin are at odds with each other's attitudes
* The Warlock kept being called a "robot" and that is now part of his shtick.

From a tactical standpoint:
* the Paladin and the Runepriest are the ones who take most of the punishment, except when...
* the Assassin or Monk go to single out a target and get mobbed.
* The Warforged is a ranged striker and never enters melee, but has the highest Knowledge skills.
* The Runepriest was designed to be more offensive, but always ends up on defense.

From a player standpoint:
* the Paladin/Assassin player usually takes the longest to decide which option to take, hates being rushed, and usually jumps the gun with one of his PCs and gets swatted down for it EVERY fight.
* The Cleric/Monk player "panics" whenever his characters enters melee.
* The Runepriest/Warlock player tends to miss opponents. A lot.

Lots to think about.