More info about this OSRIC thing?

[trancejeremy]

Not knowing what it was, I completely ignored any threads about it (since it sounds like some sort of Saxon thing). Until I saw the one here get locked. Which make me take a peek, and from what I could tell, it sounds like something very interesting - basically an open source 1st edition AD&D.

So is there like a FAQ on it? Or a page with more info? The official page seems to mostly under contruction.

 

[Morrus]

I didn't know anything about it, either. Looked at the page linked in the longer thread, briefly, but didn't learn much! I think it's an open source 1E, though.

 

[grodog]

The official page is at www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/

Most of the discussion about OSRIC has been on various AD&D boards like Knights & Knaves @ www.knights-n-knaves.com/phpbb/index.php and Dragonsfoot @ www.dragonsfoot.org/forums/index.php

The official FAQ appears on the other site that has a fair amount of discussion, The Delver's Dungeon @ thedelversdungeon.com/forums/index.php The thread with the FAQ appears at http://thedelversdungeon.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=15 (which is within the OSRIC forum area of DD's site).

 

[trancejeremy]

So are we going to see any actual products for this thing? Or is it more of just an experiment?

 

[Ourph]

Joe Browning at Expeditious Retreat Press has just released a .pdf version of the first OSRIC module Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom (available at the ENWorld store) and is taking pre-orders for the print version, which should be out sometime in September.

As I understand it, Joe is expecting to release a number of other OSRIC modules fairly soon and will also be starting up some sort of .pdf OSRIC newsletter containing bits and pieces of AD&D compatible gaming material (monsters, magic items, short adventures, etc.)

I've also heard there's at least one OSRIC monster supplement in the pipeline and a few other people at ENWorld have mentioned they are working on OSRIC adventure modules for either .pdf or print-on-demand publication.

 

[Philotomy Jurament]

Also, note that anything 1E or 1E-compatible can be used with OSRIC, even if it isn't explicitly labelled as "OSRIC compatible." For example, Pied Piper Publishing just shipped Cairn of the Skeleton King and is taking pre-orders for Tower of Blood. Both of those "first edition adventures" would work seamlessly with OSRIC. Also, Goodman Games released a very limited 1E print run of Iron Crypt of the Heretics at Gen Con. It sold out quickly, and it sounds like Goodman is looking at a second (hopefully larger) printing to meet demand. There are also free 1E PDF modules over at Dragonsfoot. Any of these adventures would work with OSRIC, not to mention all the out-of-print 1E modules (PDF from Paizo or print from ebay).

Lastly, Castles & Crusades modules could be run with OSRIC rules, although they aren't 100% compatible (more like 90%). Fortunately, the conversion is simple enough that you can do it on the fly.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

Well, gents, I'll try to answer your questions (I'm Stuart Marshall, credited with the grand-sounding title of Editor in Chief of OSRIC... actually it seems to mean Chief Cook and Bottle Washer!)

Before I begin, though, I need to say that as one of the principal authors of the document, I'm constrained by the OGL. That means that I can't indicate compatibility with any particular product without permission... So I can't say, for example, what Morrus said earlier in the thread.

As correctly noted above, OSRIC is still very much under construction. The rules are in their final form, but there are some proofreading issues in the document (I haven't been consistent with my use of the serial comma, I suspect there are both British and American spellings, etc.) and so on.

You could use OSRIC for its intended purpose as it is now, and I've no plans to change anything major, but what I don't have yet is a commercial-standard perfect version.

The OSRIC document itself is free in .pdf format, and OSRIC is a non-profit exercise. It's a 132-page rulebook of ~90,000 words. The final version will also be free in .pdf format.

I was surprised to learn that there seems to be a demand for printed books as well. I've decided to produce these (at cost, since it's a non-profit) but obviously not until I have a final version; the current plan is to distribute it via Lulu, and if you're interested, you'll be able to buy the book (perfect bound) for something in the region of $7.50 plus shipping.

The purpose of OSRIC is twofold.

First and foremost, it's a vehicle for publishers. Expeditious Retreat have led the way here, and as noted, their adventure Pod Caverns of the Sinister Shroom is available in .pdf format now. It will be available in print in September.

The idea there is that the publishers will be able to say that their document is "compatible with OSRIC." (Anyone can do this, without asking permission from me, and there's no need for a fee or royalty to me of any kind.) I hope that the buying public will understand that this means your publication is compatible with other systems as well, if you follow that... I realise this is vague but I'm under the constraints I indicated earlier.

Secondly, it's an openly-usable label for your publication. In other words, if you say you're selling something compatible with OSRIC, you'll benefit from the marketing that other people have put into their own OSRIC-compatible stuff, while they will also benefit from your own efforts.

I should say that I don't expect anyone actually to play OSRIC. I just hope that there will be sales of OSRIC-compatible materials, which will end up being used with other game systems, including - ahem - the game so many of us grew up playing.

I know I've been a bit vague; I'm working within constraints suggested by legally qualified people.

I'd be delighted to answer any other questions anyone has, and indeed I'd be grateful for the opportunity to do so.

 

[Quasqueton]

If one can take the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in this form, why couldn’t one write an adventure using the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in a similar form without OSRIC? What was preventing the publication of previous-edition adventures before OSRIC? I don’t understand why if you can publish the chart and explanation for Armor Class rules, someone couldn’t publish an adventure saying “AC 4”. If the OSRIC is only restrained from using the exact verbiage and the “Advanced Dungeons & Dragons” title, why couldn’t an adventure be published just leaving off the “Compatible with AD&D”?

The rules are in their final form

Why did you not include all the AD&D1 rules, and how did you decide what to include and what to exclude? Why have you not included monster stats -- aren't they necessary for a published adventure?

I no longer play the older version of D&D, but it would be interesting and useful for discussions to have all the rules in one easier to find place (rather than scattered and buried in the texts - 4 core books plus the later supplementals). There’s been many times in discussions on this board that I have wished there was an electronic version of the AD&D1 rules, so I could access them at work or otherwise away from my books at home.

[In case it needs to be said] I’m just curious and asking questions. I’m not dismissing the potential of a need or deriding the purpose of OSRIC.

Quasqueton

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

If one can take the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in this form, why couldn’t one write an adventure using the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in a similar form without OSRIC?

Even if you could do such a thing, how would you label them? "Compatible with ... old schoolness" ?

OSRIC has two benefits:

(a) I'm legally responsible for OSRIC, so if there's legal heat to be taken there, I take it. You're only responsible for the content of your adventure. So unless you duplicate someone else's IP in the adventure, infringe on a trademark, or otherwise break the law, you're safe.
(b) You can label your product as "compatible with OSRIC" and hopefully there will be broad understanding of what's meant without infringing on anyone else's IP.

What was preventing the publication of previous-edition adventures before OSRIC?

Nothing. Indeed, Rob Kuntz announced his intention to publish Cairn of the Skeleton King using his "CU" stats before OSRIC was announced, and I'm told that Goodman Games quite openly sold a 1e adventure at Gencon.

However, there are legal obstacles to be negotiated which I suspect would prevent most small publishers from considering such a thing, which is probably why it wasn't done previously. OSRIC aims to help the little guy; Rob Kuntz is presumably big enough to get legal advice.

This isn't to say that you can use OSRIC without any legal implications whatsoever. YOU MUST NOT recreate anyone else's IP or use anyone else's trademarks.

How did you decide what to include and what to exclude?

Partly on the basis of what would be legal to reproduce. We could reuse the underlying mechanisms of certain old school games, because those aren't copyrightable, but we couldn't reuse any of the artistic presentation (table formats, etc.) which precluded including areas which were mostly artistic presentation.

Also partly on the basis of which areas we thought remained unused in play. For example, many players of old school games dislike the way psionics were implemented and don't use them.

But finally, partly on the basis of which areas were necessary to publishers. Whether or not the GM uses rules about weapons -v- AC types, for example, is irrelevant to the guy who's actually producing the adventure, so we didn't bother including them. The system works perfectly well without.

If for some peculiar reason someone's actually playing OSRIC, rather than one of the other old school games, then we presume that they are more than capable of adding house rules.

Why have you not included monster stats -- aren't they necessary for a published adventure?

We think they aren't necessary, and frankly, the book's more than long enough without them - 132 pages of densely-packed information is already bigger than I'm comfortable with.

However, if anyone thinks monster stats are necessary for OSRIC, I've included a dozen sample creatures on the OSRIC website which you can find here:

http://www.knights-n-knaves.com/osric/index.html

That way, at least you have OSRIC stats for Orcs and Kobolds and things if you need them.

I no longer play the older version of D&D, but it would be interesting and useful for discussions to have all the rules in one easier to find place (rather than scattered and buried in the texts - 4 core books plus the later supplementals). There’s been many times in discussions on this board that I have wished there was an electronic version of the AD&D1 rules, so I could access them at work or otherwise away from my books at home.

I can't say OSRIC is an electronic version of any particular ruleset, I'm afraid. But I'm very glad that you seem to find a use for the document.

 

[John Stark]

If one can take the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in this form, why couldn’t one write an adventure using the rules of AD&D1 and publish them in a similar form without OSRIC? What was preventing the publication of previous-edition adventures before OSRIC? I don’t understand why if you can publish the chart and explanation for Armor Class rules, someone couldn’t publish an adventure saying “AC 4”. If the OSRIC is only restrained from using the exact verbiage and the “Advanced Dungeons & Dragons” title, why couldn’t an adventure be published just leaving off the “Compatible with AD&D”?

You could certainly publish a module in the manner you've stated, and OSRIC is not intended in any way to be some kind of "one game to rule them all" type of venture.

OSRIC does do a few things that make using it convenient. First, all of the work has already been done for authors and publishers. Want to reference a rule from one of the old games? OSRIC has it available already for you to cut and paste (although there is now a 100 word limit for direct quotes from OSRIC, something I hope the authors will amend). Further, all of the work of converting the old game to something that is OGL-compliant has been done (presumably). Using OSRIC means you don't have to constantly be going over your own use of certain terms, descriptions, etc. to be sure you're not violating the OGL.

Second, as P&P stated, OSRIC give a recognizable brand name that everyone is free to use that indicates compatibility with certain older games. This means that when other publishers and authors use OSRIC, and their stuff is for sale at RPGNow or some other distribution site, that other OSRIC publications will get hits simply because they use the same brand name. Thus, if I buy a module like Matt Finch's Pod Caves of the Sinister Shroom in pdf from RPGNow, the site will recommend other products to me that have the OSRIC label. Typing OSRIC into a Google search will eventually bring back hits for the various publications as well, once more get put on the market. Its free advertising for your own product.

Another advantage with OSRIC is that using it will, over time, become synonymous with saying, "I'm publishing my rpg book using these, ahem, old rules!" Once the word gets spread around that OSRIC is a reformulation of rules, algorithms, and formulas from certain older games, people will know that an OSRIC product is compatible with those older games. Its a name recognition thing, a markeying angle to help the consumer know what they are buying (once the word gets around).

Also, OSRIC is freely available to the public. Lets say that someone who played one of the old games wanted to share a copy of the rules of that game with someone who primarily plays a different system. Or that someone who plays a different system would like to have the rules for that old game on hand so they can convert an OSRIC product for their own game (e.g., maybe a d20 player who has never played one of the old game). Rather than searching for an out of print book to buy, or a pdf of the book, they can grab OSRIC for free and their converting chores are more easily met.

OSRIC is also intended to reopen the market for "old school" products, and to facilitate the play thereof. For example, Steve March, a well known ex-TSR guy, seems to be inclined to support OSRIC as a tool for old school style gaming (scroll to the last post): Steve Marsh on OSRIC

Why did you not include all the AD&D1 rules, and how did you decide what to include and what to exclude? Why have you not included monster stats -- aren't they necessary for a published adventure?

I no longer play the older version of D&D, but it would be interesting and useful for discussions to have all the rules in one easier to find place (rather than scattered and buried in the texts - 4 core books plus the later supplementals). There’s been many times in discussions on this board that I have wished there was an electronic version of the AD&D1 rules, so I could access them at work or otherwise away from my books at home.

I wasn't involved with the creation of OSRIC, so take what I say with that in mind. That being said, I believe the authors determined that there were certain rules and concepts in the old games that were too closely tied to the artistic presentation as given in those old games that prohibitted them from inclusion in OSRIC. The authors of OSRIC are trying in every way to work within the OGL, and to respect the trademarks and product identity of certain companies, and thus where there was any question whether a reformulation of certain rules or descriptions would tread on ground that is verboten, they used the utmost caution.

In case it needs to be said] I’m just curious and asking questions. I’m not dismissing the potential of a need or deriding the purpose of OSRIC.

Good show! Its always nice to see people approach something with an open mind and fair questions.

I had many of the same questions as you do when I first learned about OSRIC, as I didn't quite grasp the point of it, and have now since caught the gist of why OSRIC was created. I'd heartily recommend that you check the links that grodog has provided, as there is some good info in those that does a far better job of articulating the reasons for and legalities of OSRIC than I could do.

EDIT: Cross posted with P&P.