More WotC RPGA D&D content in Dungeon?

[takasi]

Decided to separate this from the Dragon 344 thread:

Eventually, we decided that in order for a backdrop to appear in Dungeon there had to be an adventure associated with it, and since at the time we didn't have a Dreadhold adventure it got kicked over to Dragon for publication rather than just sitting on a cool article and not publishing it for a year.

It seems very strange that out of hundreds of locations from the ECS, the second Paizo Eberron backdrop article is Dreadhold, one of the few locations that actually DOES have an adventure. Gambit at Dreadhold was an excellent RPGA module. It has the right mix of action and roleplay. The length is about the right size for Dungoen. The writing quality is professional and better than some Dungoen modules.

The adventure is no longer available from the RPGA. I think it would have been perfect for Dungeon alongside a detailed backdrop article on the island prison. If the Dungeon staff wasn't aware of this module, it would be nice if they worked with the content manager at the RPGA to get a listing of upcoming module descriptions. For example, the monster city of Greywall would make a good backdrop for Dungeon, and Incident at Greywall would make an excellent companion adventure.

What does everyone think of RPGA adventures in Dungeon? They've done this a few times in the past. For example, in 2005 75% of the Eberron adventures published in Dungeon were reprints from the RPGA. Mad God's Key was based loosely on a Living Greyhawk adventure.

I think this helps benefit the RPGA too. DMs get to see what the games are all about even if they can't make it to conventions. Seeing an adventure in Dungeon might motivate some DMs to sanction other adventures for home play. It may even inspire a few gamedays. Having RPGA adventures in Dungeon might even help recruit more aspiring writers to volunteer.

Xen'drik Expeditions is one opportunity. It's a brand new campaign that hasn't been released yet. At Gen Con Indy they're running a mega 12 hour adventure called Well of Woe; it might be a good candidate for the magazine. I've sent emails and messages to several people at the RPGA and posted on Paizo's boards, now all I can do is wait and see.

What's your experience with RPGA modules? Which ones do you feel were Dungeon worthy?

 

[MeepoTheMighty]

Gambit at Dreadhold was only a good mod if you followed the railroaded plot. The party I ran it for wasted a couple hours of game time trying to defeat the encounter you're supposed to lose, which made the rest of the mod rather rushed.


They wouldn't need to reprint Mark of Heroes mods in the magazine if they'd just make them available for more than a freaking month. Mark of Heroes was a horrible campaign, but I guess I wouldn't mind seeing the rest of the adventures that I never got to play.

 

[Arnwyn]

The writing quality is professional and better than some Dungoen modules.

I find that hard to believe.

What's your experience with RPGA modules? Which ones do you feel were Dungeon worthy?

Horrible. I have yet to see an RPGA module over the years that even rates as mediocre, much less good. And it's been quite easy to figure out which modules that have appeared in Dungeon are from the RPGA - they're usually overly short, boring, and have terrible maps. (That Eberron 'trilogy' last year, for example, was rather dreadful IMO.)

I hope Dungeon steers clear of the RPGA.

 

[Glyfair]

Gambit at Dreadhold was an excellent RPGA module. It has the right mix of action and roleplay. The length is about the right size for Dungoen. The writing quality is professional and better than some Dungoen modules.

I have it. Why would I want another copy (even one better produced and with better quality)?

Horrible. I have yet to see an RPGA module over the years that even rates as mediocre, much less good. And it's been quite easy to figure out which modules that have appeared in Dungeon are from the RPGA - they're usually overly short, boring, and have terrible maps. (That Eberron 'trilogy' last year, for example, was rather dreadful IMO.)

I have experienced at least one module that I considered a quality adventure. It was one that Keith Baker wrote for Mark of Heroes, I though it was excellent.

Some of the Mark of Heroes adventures seemed reasonable and interesting, but suffered from horrible editing and production values. I'm talking about entire statblocks missing for one of the main protaganists of the adventure. Don't even consider trying to read the blocked text in play. Make sure you read it out loud first, and edit it (assuming you don't already have another approach).

 

[kenobi65]

I don't think that RPGA modules, generally speaking, will make good Dungeon modules, without significant rework.

For one thing, almost all RPGA modules are written to be playable in a single 4-hour convention slot. Most (though certainly not all) Dungeon adventures are written / built to take longer than that to play. For example, "Mad God's Key" (which, btw, was not "based" on a Living Greyhawk adventure; it was a Living Greyhawk adventure, that was printed in Dungeon and could be played as an official LG module for some months after that publication) was several times longer than a traditional LG module, but, IIRC, was not particularly "long" by Dungeon standards.

And, at least in part due to the time constraint, a lot of RPGA modules are what many players might consider to be "railroady".

And, generally speaking, there's a legal hurdle to overcome, and that's publishing rights (as has been discussed in your matching thread over on the RPGA board). Briefly, the standard contracts the RPGA has its authors sign do not give the RPGA (or WotC) any further publication rights after the module retires from official RPGA play...generally, the rights to the module now revert to the author. So, it's not a slam-dunk of "WotC / RPGA has these modules already done, just funnel them over to Dungeon." If RPGA wanted to reprint more modules in Dungeon, they'd need to renegotiate contracts with the affected authors.

takasi, I know you're trying, desperately, to figure out how to get more Eberron content in Dungeon. I'm just not sure that this would wind up being a viable way to do it.

 

[takasi]

Gambit at Dreadhold was only a good mod if you followed the railroaded plot. The party I ran it for wasted a couple hours of game time trying to defeat the encounter you're supposed to lose, which made the rest of the mod rather rushed.

The majority of Dungeon adventures are generally dungeon crawls with very little plot or a railroaded one. As Mr. Jacobs has said in the past, the purpose of Dungeon is not to support open ended play. You have to present the adventure in a narrow, somewhat railroaded way to make it work as a Dungeon adventure.

The module was a fairly good adventure overall. I'll admit that all RPGA modules could use editing, but they probably need less editing than the majority of manuscripts that Paizo receives.

I have it. Why would I want another copy (even one better produced and with better quality)?

There are a lot of people who don't have a copy and will never have the opportunity to get one. For example, I don't think the staff at Paizo have seen this adventure...

It was one that Keith Baker wrote for Mark of Heroes, I though it was excellent.

I would love to see an update of the Delirium Stone. It was never published through the retailer kits, as far as I know, so it's extremely difficult to get a copy of it now.

I don't think that RPGA modules, generally speaking, will make good Dungeon modules, without significant rework.

Can you provide some examples? Gambit at Dreadhold would be the best one to work with, since it's the missed opportunity that started this thread. Maybe Reflections of the Multiverse? Or Blind Man's Hunt? What changes, above and beyond the normal manuscript editing, would you need to make to these adventures?

For example, "Mad God's Key"

Sorry, I was thinking of 'Key to the Grave' .

Mad God's Key is an example of something else Paizo could do. Instead of reprinting modules, they could easily work with the RPGA to create something unique to Dungeon that the RPGA can use.

Briefly, the standard contracts the RPGA has its authors sign do not give the RPGA (or WotC) any further publication rights after the module retires from official RPGA play...generally, the rights to the module now revert to the author.

And as was pointed out before, all Paizo has to do is work with the RPGA to contact the author. How is this a major obstacle?

Is it really that irrational to think that Paizo missed an opportunity here with Gambit at Dreadhold and the Dreadhold backdrop? The adventure is a good starting point and if Paizo really wanted to put Dreadhold in Dungeon they could have used GaD as a companion piece. Don't get me wrong; having Dreadhold in Dragon is better than no Dreadhold at all. However, I think the ideal would have been to have Dreadhold as a backdrop in Dungeon with a companion adventure to go with it. There is already a Dreadhold adventure, and with very little editing it could have made a Dungeon module that's much better than 75% of what Paizo presented as Eberron adventures in 2005.

 

[James Jacobs]

Just stepping in for a bit to clarify something: While I did say that if the RPGA wants to submit some adventrues to Dungeon I'd check them out, I'd rather not get into the practice of reprinting adventures, even if we're reprinting adventures that have had relatively small print runs. Printing the D&D open in issues 123–135 was an experiment, and based on the results we've seen (ranging from the popularity of the adventrues on back to the amount of work it was to convert and prepare them for publication), we probably won't be reprinting D&D opens in the future.

As another aside: I disagree with the majority of the adventures we print are dungeon crawls or low on plot: an adventure's plot is in fact one of the more important things we look at. As for adventures and railroading... ALL adventrues railroad. If they don't, and if they simply provide a huge region of encounters that support completely open play... you don't have an adventure anymore. You have a campaign setting.

 

[takasi]

Just stepping in for a bit to clarify something: While I did say that if the RPGA wants to submit some adventrues to Dungeon I'd check them out, I'd rather not get into the practice of reprinting adventures, even if we're reprinting adventures that have had relatively small print runs.

Relatively small to none that is (online distribution through sanctioning is not a print run). In the case of Gambit at Dreadhold, don't you think this might have been a good opportunity for collaboration?

As another aside: I disagree with the majority of the adventures we print are dungeon crawls or low on plot: an adventure's plot is in fact one of the more important things we look at. As for adventures and railroading... ALL adventrues railroad. If they don't, and if they simply provide a huge region of encounters that support completely open play... you don't have an adventure anymore. You have a campaign setting.

There's a lot of plot in the background, but many adventures in Dungeon are dungeon crawls. In fact, you made a post recently on the Paizo boards telling readers that you're aware that many people don't like Dungeon Crawls. You went on to say that you're going to try to introduce non crawls, but crawls are your preference and we'll still see a good number of them in the future.

In any event, the Mark of Heroes adventures are not low on plot. The railroading isn't anymore so than in most Dungeon adventures. As Mr. Jacobs pointed out, this is somewhat necessary.

What about working with the RPGA to publish future adventures for them? Xen'drik Expeditions sounds like a good opportunity. They wouldn't be reprints if you did them like Mad God's Key.

 

[MerricB]

Gambit at Dreadhold was distributed as a printed adventure in both the January and February RPGA Retailer Kits.

I would have consider it a waste of money to receive the adventure AGAIN in Dungeon magazine, after I downloaded it for free from the RPGA events site for use in a home game.

Cheers!

 

[MerricB]

What about working with the RPGA to publish future adventures for them? Xen'drik Expeditions sounds like a good opportunity. They wouldn't be reprints if you did them like Mad God's Key.

Have you considered the requirements of online reporting (there's only a brief period an adventure can be "live" for before the campaign progresses past the level it was written for) and that Dungeon magazine is distributed over a 3-4 month period to subscribers and stores?

Cheers!