Mor's End Poll

[Conaill]

I'm going with the majority and not using the grandmother thing.

I don't think there is a majority on this. Most people didn't like how she was integrated into the history in the beginning, i.e when we were still referring to the city being ruled by "Eric's grandma". But that has gotten resolved long ago.

Knightfall's summaries are as close to an "official" overview as we have had, and they've included the whole "Erek Nohan & sorceror grandmother" story for several weeks by now, going back at least to March 8th or so. That's been the semi-official version up until now, and I haven't really heard anyone complain about it.

Wouldn't that make her the Castellan not the Duke?

Dunno. Titles change. Castellan could very well be a title that came into being only a couple hundred years ago (presumably not before there was a serious castle to speak of). Note that there's no Duke in the current Mor's End either...

PS: weekend is bound to be slow. You might want to hold off making a decision on this until later...

 

[jdavis]

I liked the present lady Kelvin rules because there is no male heirs, why there are never any male heirs would be part of the mystery behind the crown. Male children are born sometimes very few have ruled for long, most die young (it is a violent city on the edge of the wilderness). Many on the street feel that the Male children of Mor are cursed, and many others feel that the female heirs of Mor know how to hold on to power by any means necessary. Whispers on the street is that Lady Kelvin has always been the same person and that is why she is seldom seen in public. The current Lady Kelvin has ruled for a long time, I think I read one of the histories that talked about her having grandchildren. Rumors on the street and the real story can and will be different but I like the idea that there are rumors on the street.

 

[David Argall]

multi voting

A choice based on just who gets the most votes here won't do. It would better to know which choices are acceptable to the most people and how much. But 1st place here could be one hated by most but with a pack of loyal fans.

I don't know how much the poll machinery will allow, but you may want additional forms of the poll, such as allowing yes or no on each option, yes10, 9, 8,...1 no, or maybe rank order or....

 

[Tonguez]

If we accept that the people who founded the city are men named Mor and Erekh,
(a) why is the ruler named Kelvin?
(b) why would a city founded by two men set up a matriarchy?

iirc the Iroqouis were a Matriarchy in which political leadership was exercised by appointed male offspring, certain 'Mongol' clans also had a society with aspects of Matriarchy. My own culture also has domestic leadership exercised by women but political/military leadership exercised by men.

This fits perfectly with the model displayed by the Lady Kelvin as Erekhs grandmother model. She is Matriarch who appoints her grandson as leader of her clan - Clan Kelvin

We can assume perhaps that Mor married Erekhs daughter who eventually inherited the title of Lady Kelvin - which is the hereidtary title of Clan Kelvin which is the major human clan of the region (and thus its de facto rulers)

um I think that makes clear what my opinion is - I like Lady Kelvin...

 

[Lalato]

This fits perfectly with the model displayed by the Lady Kelvin as Erekhs grandmother model. She is Matriarch who appoints her grandson as leader of her clan - Clan Kelvin

We can assume perhaps that Mor married Erekhs daughter who eventually inherited the title of Lady Kelvin - which is the hereidtary title of Clan Kelvin which is the major human clan of the region (and thus its de facto rulers)

um I think that makes clear what my opinion is - I like Lady Kelvin...

Hmmm... hadn't thought of that before. What if Erekh was the part of that Kelvin clan of herdsman... He had a daughter that married Mor and the matrilineal line follows from that.

So to recap...
-Mor is a slave who escapes bondage.
-Mor is taken in by Argali herdsman.
-Mor has a dream in which he destroys the slavers.
-Herdsman elder tells him to seek Erekh, a son of their clan... and a warlord.
-Mor convinces Erekh to help him destroy slavers
-Mor incites a slave revolt and with the help of -Erekh destroys slavers
-Mor, Erekh and the slaves return to Enheim where they settle.
-Erekh's grandmother is the current leader of the clan... and becomes the "mayor" of the new settlement
-Erekh's grandmother becomes known as Lady Kelvin by the former slaves... and the name sticks.
-Mor marries Erekh's eldest daughter.
-Mor has three daughters
-Erekh's Grandmother dies
-Erekh's eldest daughter becomes "mayor" and retains the title Lady Kelvin...
-Every Lady Kelvin retains the bright green eyes of the Kelvin clan... though there have been a few male leaders, the majority have been female... add a few rumors here and there... and the rest is history.

--sam

 

[fusangite]

Re: multi voting

David,

A choice based on just who gets the most votes here won't do. It would better to know which choices are acceptable to the most people and how much. But 1st place here could be one hated by most but with a pack of loyal fans.

I don't know how much the poll machinery will allow, but you may want additional forms of the poll, such as allowing yes or no on each option, yes10, 9, 8,...1 no, or maybe rank order or.... [/B]

David, I'm not running a "first past the post" election for which option is chosen. I just want to get a sense of whether there is a majority opinion and if there isn't, what the distribution of opinions is. No -- I'm not going to choose the opinion of the largest minority; this is a poll, not an election.

Tonguez,

While I am aware of the Clan Mother system of the Iroquois Confederacy, it's important to note that the confederacy never had female chiefs. The fact that the electors of chiefs were only female, while interesting, is not actually an example of the ruler being female; instead it's another example of a system which prohibits women from being leaders, even if it does give them far more political rights than in other societies of the period. Same goes for the Mongols -- were there any female Khans? No.

 

[Tonguez]

Re: Re: multi voting

Tonguez,

While I am aware of the Clan Mother system of the Iroquois Confederacy, it's important to note that the confederacy never had female chiefs. The fact that the electors of chiefs were only female, while interesting, is not actually an example of the ruler being female; instead it's another example of a system which prohibits women from being leaders, even if it does give them far more political rights than in other societies of the period. Same goes for the Mongols -- were there any female Khans? No.

I submit for your edification Sorghaghtani Beki Mother of Great Khans.

This I think is a good fit for the relationship of Lady Kelvin to the city - she is Matriarch of the ruling Clan not necessarily the ruler. Remeber that as written the present Lady Kelvin leaves the running of the city to the Castellan and the Council of Warders whilst she remains in the background and takes an interest in arranging the lives of her grnadchildren - exactly the role that Sorghaghtani Beki took

Now whilst you are mostly correct in your assertion that in most every society the position of chief (be it Ariki, Khan, King, Emperor or President) has gone to males I would suggest that in many societies this is a specifically Military and by association Diplomatic position - that is the Chief is Leader in relation to outside interests.

In a matriarchic society the Chiefs leadership though respected does not hold equal weight in relation to domestic leadership (ie internal affairs) and this is infact the preogative of Old Women.

Just as clarification I am trained as an Anthropologist and also ethnically come from a tribal culture. I am thus able to observe the operations of my own tribe in relation to our chief and I can tell you that though we are respectful of him and do defer to him in some things even he must answer to the terrible Might of the Aunties!.
In other words I would happily assert (based upon my supposed expertise, my research into historic structures amongst my own people and my experiences as a cultural insider) that my culture displays Matriarchic traits and that significant power is exercised by the Matriarchs

 

[fusangite]

Matriarchy Debate

OK Tonguez, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate. I'm not engaged in a discussion about who actually has the power in Mor's End. I'm engaged in a discussion about who the head of state is.

By analogy, I'm asking "Who is the President of the United States?" not "Who runs the United States?" And therefore looking for the answer George W Bush, not George H W Bush, the Trilateral Commission or Dick Cheney. I want to know in whose name laws are made not the mechanism by which they actually come into being.

The information you're giving me, while interesting and true, doesn't really help me in producing a mythic history. People whose faces are stamped on coins do not hold the title "castellan"; they hold titles like Lord, Lady, Duke, Queen.

Now to be clear, I'm not saying that the ruler of Mor's End cannot be female; I'm not saying the ruler of Mor's End cannot be Lady Kelvin. All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a credible theory of how the line of Ladies Kelvin started and how succession is determined. I would, for instance, be happy to go with the theory that Lalato posted.

But what you're proposing sounds like a completely different idea of who Lady Kelvin is; I'm open to that too but your definition of her begs the question -- who is the official ruler?

 

[Conaill]

Re: Matriarchy Debate

All I'm saying is that I'd like to see a credible theory of how the line of Ladies Kelvin started and how succession is determined. I would, for instance, be happy to go with the theory that Lalato posted.

Me too. And I don't really see it contradicting Tonguez's version all that much, frankly.

In some generations, the Lady Kelvin is the power behind the throne, in others she occupies the throne herself. We can add in the idea that there are few male descendants in the ruling Kelvin line.

(Hmm... make the eyes "sapphire blue" to fit in with the local gemstones? Would be an appropriate sign of power over Mor's End...)

 

[Tonguez]

Re: Matriarchy Debate

OK Tonguez, I think what we have here is a failure to communicate.

The information you're giving me, while interesting and true, doesn't really help me in producing a mythic history. People whose faces are stamped on coins do not hold the title "castellan"; they hold titles like Lord, Lady, Duke, Queen.

But what you're proposing sounds like a completely different idea of who Lady Kelvin is; I'm open to that too but your definition of her begs the question -- who is the official ruler?

Yep failure to communicate what I was suggesting is that Lady Kelvin is Ruler in the manner that the Queen of Great Britain is ruler in the Commonwealth. Actual Lawmaking is exercised through Parliament (the Council of Warders) headed by a mainly male Prime Minister (Castellan). In the past the Ladies Kelvin may have had a more direct rulership of the City, the current Lady is less hands-on in her approach.

Now it is still Lady Kelvins head that is stamped on coins and she remains very much politically informed - this is not the same thing as having direct authority over the law and daily functioning of the City.

I hope that explains things better - ie I too like Lalato's logic, I was clarifying the female ruler- male 'chief' (Prime Minister/Castellan) relationship that Lady Kelvin has vis-a-vis the City;D...