Most broken prestige classes?

[NilesB]

There is no reason why the burden of proof falls on me rather than you, and while I have not demonstrated that my reading is the only valid reading of the rules I have shown it to be the strongest and most consistent reading of the rules.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Wow, what a feud about the Radiant's powers......

Moving up about 20 posts or so, I am a bit leery of Sacred Fist, especially as you can qualify for it with a level of Monk and then four levels of Ranger, to keep your BAB as high as possible. Sure, you do not get the Improved Flurry, but with a good BAB progression, it doesn't really matter. If I were to go into it, Monk1/Ranger3/Monk1/Sacred Fist10 looks pretty good to me.

At 16th level

BAB+15 (Flurry away. the -2 doesn't mean much)
Ranger Casting of 9 (Yeah, Cleric is much stronger)
Nice speed and AC bonuses.
It jsut grants a bit too much, in my opinion.

Butthen again, my opinion is probably colored bythe fact I hate monks, and a certian mod here once played a Sacred Fist in one of my campaigns.

 

[Felix]

Yeah, EyeontheMountain, my query on the Pious Templar and the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil went unanswered in this landslide of Radiant Servant business.

Ah well, may as well wade on in...

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We can all agree that the Radiant Servant of Pelor does two things well:

Heals
Turns Undead​

It does not seem insignifigant to me that the class is called "Radiant Servant of Pelor", as Pelor is a god of healing and of the Sun, which is anathema to undead. The two greatest restrictions of this class are: patron Deity and alignment. If your character concept is that of a wicked cool fighting cleric of WeeJas who is also good at healing, too bad. It means that the best healers in the world are Pelorians, and that makes sense. It means that the best fighters against undead are Pelorians, and that makes sense.

The question of "why wouldn't any cleric take this class?" is an erronious question. Any cleric wouldn't take this class because only clerics of Pelor qualify.

The real question is "why wouldn't a cleric of Pelor take this class?" And the answer is, "Every cleric of Pelor probably would take this class". Is that such a bad thing to have the Healing and Sun god running around with healing and undead-turning clerics?

Only if the choice of alignment, deity and domans means nothing to you can you delcare that this is not a signifigant restriction on the character. And if you believe that the choice of alignment, patron deities and domains means nothing, then there's nothing further to discuss.

Second point:

Turning undead is an ability completely in control of the DM. It can be powered up by encountering more undead, mitigated by applying Turn Resistance, and almost completely obsoleted by not throwing undead at the PCs. If the Radiant Servant is becoming a little powerful, let the intelligent undead actually get smart and stay out of this guy's way.

Point the Third

Healing is a defensive ability (though it can be offensive against undead: see second point). Offensive abilities are valued higher than defensive ones as far as balance goes: after all, you have to attack the Radiant Servant for him to get mileage out of his increased healing capability. Like the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil, increasing the power of a defensive ability will not necessarily increase the character's offensive power as much as it will increase his party-members' survivability: increases in defensive abilities work to increase the other party members' offensive capabilities. It is immenently not imbalancing, nor broken, to broadly increase your party's survivability.

Point the 3.5:

Also, the text says, "casts a domain spell from the healing domain". The footnote for the cleric table on page 31 of the PHB states:

In addition to the stated number of spells per day for 1st through 9th level spells, a cleric gets a domain spell for each spell level, starting at 1st. The "+1" in the entries on this table represents that spell. Domain spells are in addition to any bonus spells the cleric may recieve for having a high Wisdom score.​

[Emphasis added]

This footnote does clearly seperate domain spells from the other spells the cleric may cast from their spell list and those gained from a high Wisdom.

For those of you who argue both that the Radiant Servant is too powerful and that the Empower Healing ability can be used with every Healing spell cast, here is precident that allows you to rule otherwise. Refusing to use this ruling that would allow you to power-down the abilities of a class you claim to be over-powered may suggest that perhaps you dislike the class for other reasons than its power-level, and simply use power-level as an excuse to ban the class.

 

[Mistwell]

Which of course shows, yet again, that the glossary sucks. It is often wrong or misleading.

However, you have not shown anything to support your case other than the last line of the glossary might pose problems somewhere else in the rules, which is not actually support for your case at all.

I would have no problem with it being true that only the domain slots prepared with healing domain spells work with the classes ability, but you have not shown that it is the case. There are several places which point to the opposite so far in fact.

By your logic, if I have protection from good on my domain spell list, then if I prepare it in a non-domain spell slot, I cannot swap that spell out for a cure spell. Why? Because it's considered a domain spell even it isn't prepared in a domain slot, and domain spells cannot be swapped out for cure spells.

However, you and I both know that isn't how the game functions. You don't keep track of both domain slot spells and any spell that might be on a domain spell list but which is prepared in a regular slot, for purposes of what can be swapped.

All the wording on page 32 of the PHB backs up the argument that a domain spell is a spell cast from a domain spell slot. The wording in the glossary does as well. And the wording of the page 31 PHB footnote does as well. And logic does as well for purposes of the debate over this prestige class.

If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

Yeah, EyeontheMountain, my query on the Pious Templar and the Initiate of the 7-fold Veil went unanswered in this landslide of Radiant Servant business.

For those of you who argue both that the Radiant Servant is too powerful and that the Empower Healing ability can be used with every Healing spell cast, here is precident that allows you to rule otherwise. Refusing to use this ruling that would allow you to power-down the abilities of a class you claim to be over-powered may suggest that perhaps you dislike the class for other reasons than its power-level, and simply use power-level as an excuse to ban the class.

Let me say I agree totally about Radiant Servant. It is about the best cleric prestige class out there, and its main power vs undead is good, and may even make turning undead viable. It sucks to be a 12th level cleric who cannot turn a 15 HD zombie. Pretty humiliating, especially for those of us from 2E where type of undead rules, not HD. Hard to beleive that a high HD zombie is harder to turn than a Lich. Jsut something wrong there.

But to go to my listing of initiate.

Initiate has a lot of wasted feats to get into it. I mean SF abjuration? If Spell Focus added to Caster Level it would rule, but how many abjurations have save DCs? Other than banishment and such?

The thing that bothers me about the class is the reactive warding, especially when they get to all seven veils. That is virtual (or total) immunity to any attack in the game. Add onthe seven levels of spellcasting, and it is a pretty good class, and should be watched, though it is nowhere near the level of Incantrix brokeness. Man, that class jsut gets more and more broken as the new books come out.

As for Pious Templert, I did not list it and am not sure why it was listed. Yes, Mettle+Evasion is a nice combo, but it is not much better than Evasion alone. How many will and Fortitude partial spells are out there and need to be feared? I can't think of many. Plus if you want mettle there are other wayts to get it, though granted not at 1st level. But that is a cherry-picking problem, not a problem of the class as a whole.

I did not list classes that should be watched for cherry picking, but that would make a good lsit also.

 

[EyeontheMountain]

If you think your interpretation and the competing one are both reasonable, and one results in the prestige class being significantly more powerful than the other, and you already think the prestige class is very powerful, then logic dictates you choose the reasonable interpretation that grants less power for the already "overpowered" prestige class.

Well said. Well said

 

[hong]

Let me say I agree totally about Radiant Servant. It is about the best cleric prestige class out there, and its main power vs undead is good, and may even make turning undead viable. It sucks to be a 12th level cleric who cannot turn a 15 HD zombie. Pretty humiliating, especially for those of us from 2E where type of undead rules, not HD.

"Humiliating"? Just beat the friggin' thing to death!

 

[Someone]

Radiant Servents give up nothing. They gain everything that a cleric has and more. The become the ultimate undead killer. That doesn't mean that you be beaten but you get great bang for the buck.

And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter. They gain everything a Fighter gets, and more. They become the ultimate two weapon fighters. If you have Improved two weapon fighting and spring attack, there's no reason not to take the Tempest class.

I repeat, what's the point of that argument? One of the uses of prestige classes is to offer more power on narrow or specialized areas. Radiant Servants are good against undead, and have a boots on Healing spells. Other abilities -like martial weapon proficiency- are less appropiate, but I think that hardly makes the class absurdly overpowered, or worthy of be listed in this thread.

 

[Legildur]

And Tempests give up nothing compared to a fighter. They gain everything a Fighter gets, and more. They become the ultimate two weapon fighters. If you have Improved two weapon fighting and spring attack, there's no reason not to take the Tempest class.

Except for access to some Fighter only feats, and possibly the new feats in the PHBII. But if I were building a 2WF character, then I'd certainly be eyeing off that PrC!

 

[Seeten]

Radiant Servents give up nothing. They gain everything that a cleric has and more. The become the ultimate undead killer. That doesn't mean that you be beaten but you get great bang for the buck.

Dont they give up medium bab and d8 hit dice for poor bab and d6 hit dice?

Doesnt this mean they give up their martial prowess to become a better spellcaster?

And dont tell me base clerics dont make excellent warriors.