Most overrated "broken" things?

[Benben]

Really can't believe I ever thought monks were broken, so I gotta cut slack to folks who still do.

Oh my gosh! I remembered thread after thread of people complaining about monks in the 3.0 days.

 

[Caliban]

A shifter variant druid at high levels in the elemental form is 15'x15' with (if I recall corectly, no book here) 15' reach. Trip bonuses are probably higher, too, since BAB isn't a part of trip. About as bad, and without relying on any spells or equipment... and the character is a full caster.

This variant is generally regarded as less powerfull than a normal Druid, too, who I'm sure could accomplish the same type of thing with wildshape.

I remain unimpressed by the spiked chain. In fact, I've played a chain wielder and found the experience a bit boring.

At high levels. The trip fighter I outlined above is only 2nd to 4th level.

Special attack options such as grapple, trip, sunder, disarm become generally less and less useful above about 9th level. You fight more opponents who are immune or effectively immune (i.e. no items to disarm or sunder, so large that trip and grapple are nearly impossible, incorporeal, freedom of movement, etc. etc.)

Generally only truly twinked out trip-fighters will be able to effectively trip those opponents that are trippable at high levels.

And spiked chain fighter do tend to be boring. To do your thing well, you have to spend a lot of feats and resources, leaving very little room for other combat options.

...what damage output? The spiked chain's multiplier is 20/x2, it's possibly the worst weapon for damage output that the world has yet seen.

Then you haven't seen a well built chain fighter. It's not about the crits.

It's about the number of attacks, and damager per attack that you can achieve. (Combat Reflexes with a 20' reach, Two-handed Power Attack multiplier, Spiked Chain flurry from Exotic Weapon Master.)

Casters will eat the Spiked Chain Wielder alive. Our group's casters certainly did.

That's not really relevent. A mixed group with casters will eat almost any single humanoid fighter type alive, regardless of what weapon they are wielding.

 

[Jefe Bergenstein]

I think "damage output" is a reference to all them attacks of opportunity a spiked-chain wielder can make with Combat Reflexes.

Thats also spread among enemies. Unless you're fighting mooks, hitting each guy once isnt a big deal. Its almost always better to concentrate on one foe, since D&D doesnt really have a death spiral mechanic.

 

[Caliban]

Thats also spread among enemies. Unless you're fighting mooks, hitting each guy once isnt a big deal. Its almost always better to concentrate on one foe, since D&D doesnt really have a death spiral mechanic.

I'm not talking about spread out among enemies. If they move into you, you get an AoO there, if you manage to trip them you effectively give them an AC (and attack) penalty so that you are more likely to hit them or can power attack for more.

If you are high enough level (7+) to take Exotic Weapon master, you can flurry with the chain for an extra attack.

That's 2 more attacks than a non-reach two-handed fighter, and possibly against a lower AC - which allows more power attack or a higher chance of hitting with the rest of your attacks.

If you moved up to them (thus no AoO), you can also use your lowest bonus attack (the one most likely to miss) to make a trip attack against their touch AC, which (if successful) sets them up for your next round of attacks (and makes the follow up attack with improved trip more likely to hit).

And because of your extended reach, you are more likely to have other opponents in range when you do manage to drop your primary target.

 

[cignus_pfaccari]

Then you haven't seen a well built chain fighter. It's not about the crits.

It's about the number of attacks, and damager per attack that you can achieve. (Combat Reflexes with a 20' reach, Two-handed Power Attack multiplier, Spiked Chain flurry from Exotic Weapon Master.)

At least he's effective at what he does. Which is being boring.

Of course, he'd still be doing more damage on the important things if he had, oh, I don't know, a better weapon.

That's not really relevent. A mixed group with casters will eat almost any single humanoid fighter type alive, regardless of what weapon they are wielding.

Actually, it is.

A common reason the spiked chain wielder is viewed as being broken is that it's hard to fight in melee. This means, of course, you don't fight it in melee. And casters are especially good at that, given their ability to avoid AoOs by casting defensively. And being prone really doesn't do jack to them.

Brad

 

[Caliban]

At least he's effective at what he does. Which is being boring.

Of course, he'd still be doing more damage on the important things if he had, oh, I don't know, a better weapon.

Lol, it's pretty clear you've made up your mind. Obviously, my experiences differ.

Actually, it is.

Still not relevent.

That's equally true for any melee monster build, not just spiked chains.

 

[Mistwell]

Genuinely broken things: druids,...conjuration spells...Book of Exalted Deeds.

Painting with a pretty broad brush there...

 

[Felon]

Painting with a pretty broad brush there...

Well, what do you expect? We're covering a broad topic. And when it comes to the BoED's munchosity, a broad brush makes few mistakes.

 

[DogBackward]

I think a big problem with the BoED is that, like with the Paladin, the creators tried to use roleplaying restrictions to balance an increase in mechanical power. It just doesn't work. Even if you don't count the difference in a DM's interpretations of what are a commonly disputed set of semi-vague "rules", there's still the fact that any determined player could get past these roleplaying "restrictions" with ease.

It takes a very good DM to run the BoED successfully. Exalted Deeds isn't broken, per say, it's just very fragile.

 

[Felon]

The Book of Vile Darkness was mostly a book full of flavor that did nothing to really empower evil characters. Spells like clutch of orcus and hellfire sounded cool, but were quantifiably weaker than comparable existing spells. You may have noticed that when those spells were compiled into the Spell Compendium, they had features added to make them at least somewhat competitive (though I'm still not sure how great it is to cast a hold person that only lasts as long as I'm concentrating). You had vile spells and dark speech, stuff that hurt the user at least as much as his victim.

In stark contrast, Book of Exalted Deeds was a big pie full of crunchy power. That was its goal from square one. Prestige classes oozed over with special powers. You got poisons and diseases that conveniently only affected evil characters. You got vows which empowered indiscriminantly, even those characters to whom the vows were awfully convenient. And does anyone ever want to sit down compare vile feats to exalted feats and even pretend that they're of equal worth?

But yeah, if you take most of the feats and prestige classes and equipment out, it's not so bad...