Most overrated "broken" things?

[AllisterH]

Maybe so, then maybe again folks miss all the benefits of the barbarian that the warblade matches due to all the benefits of the fighter that it co-opts.

Actually, there doesn't seem to be MUCH overlap compared to a fighter. A warblade gets the ability to be counted as a fighter -2 in terms of feats, but it doesn't get bonus fighter feats. The list of feats is quite restricted and it only gets 4 bonus feats...

Remind me, when does a warblade get damage multiples on Power Attacks?

Hmm? Which manoeuver are you referring to here?

Seriously, at 1st level, using the elite array, I find it hard to believe that people think warblades are more powerful than the standard barbarian.

 

[brehobit]

Seriously, at 1st level, using the elite array, I find it hard to believe that people think warblades are more powerful than the standard barbarian.

Let's look at 1st level. Barb vs. Warblade against each other. Yes, I know the problems with a head-to-head battle, but I don't see a better way to deal with the issue. If we want something more "fair" perhaps have the warblade and the barbarian go up against 2 kobolds, then 2 goblins, then 2 orcs, then 1 gnoll then 1 bugbear, then 1 ogre, etc. and see who dies first. I'd guess it will be the barbarian (he can only rage once or if he has extra rage he's missing some other feat (power attack or weapon focus I'd guess) and can only rage 3 times.

Barb & Warblade both have STR 15, CON 14, DEX 13. Hps are 14 and 14, both have AC 15 (say chain shirt and dex) and greatsword.

Barbarian rages. Warblade is in stance that grants +2 AC.


AC barb is now 13, WB is 17
Barb does 2d6+6 damage, has +5 attack bonus, hits on a 12 or better.
WB does 2d6+3, has +3 attack bonus hits on a 10 or better.

Average damage from barbarian is 13*.45= 5.85
Average damage from WB is 10*.55=5.5
_and_ the barbarian has an extra 2 hit points.

Doesn't take into account: +1 reflex save from WB (int=12), +10 movement from barbarian, skill lists, or ANY of the warblade's maneuvers. Assumes warblade is only fighting one person at a time and that the barbarian is only in one fight. Also, barbarians are certainly at their (relative) best at 1st level vs. all other core fighting classes. Only the Bo9S classes can really keep up at that level.

At 3rd level the warblade can have every other attack do +2d6 damage. That puts him well past the barbarian in terms of damage. At 4th level it's 2 of every 3. In that level range the barbarian gets trumped in terms of average damage in a head-to-head fight.

Mark

 

[Halivar]

I can see why people say VoP is broken. However, given that fact all of my DM's like throwing no-save level-drains (Stygian bolt is broken like an '85 Trans-Am on cinder-blocks) around, soulfire armor becomes absolutely necessary for survival (I'm not kidding; it's not optional in our game... if you don't have it, you lose levels). Therefore, the only time I have used VoP as a player, I got punked the first night I played with it (level-drained to 0).

Your gaming group may have a different experience.

 

[Moon-Lancer]

I agree. At low levels, the warblade does more damage, but once the barbarian gets a second attack, the warblade starts to fall behind. At level 20 the barbarian is doing alot more damage then the warblade.

 

[Zurai]

If we want something more "fair" perhaps have the warblade and the barbarian go up against 2 kobolds, then 2 goblins, then 2 orcs, then 1 gnoll then 1 bugbear, then 1 ogre, etc. and see who dies first.

Barb & Warblade both have STR 15, CON 14, DEX 13. Hps are 14 and 14, both have AC 15 (say chain shirt and dex) and greatsword.

Barbarian rages. Warblade is in stance that grants +2 AC.

There is no stance that grants +2 AC free and clear. Not even a higher-than-1st level stance. The 1st level Diamond Mind stance grants +2 AC against one enemy, and -2 against all other enemies.

Also, barbarians are certainly at their (relative) best at 1st level vs. all other core fighting classes. Only the Bo9S classes can really keep up at that level.

At 3rd level the warblade can have every other attack do +2d6 damage. That puts him well past the barbarian in terms of damage. At 4th level it's 2 of every 3. In that level range the barbarian gets trumped in terms of average damage in a head-to-head fight.

Mark

Actually, there's been math done (by Tempest Stormwind, on the official boards) with barbarian vs warblade with identical stats and feat (power attack only, for the sake of comparing barbarian vs warblade in general, not specific build vs specific build). He's done basic math for all 20 levels and full blown spreadsheet math for the first 7 levels.

Only at levels 3 and 5 does a warblade do more damage than a barbarian.

That's a non-Complete Champion barbarian, too. A CC barb (lion totem for pounce) will obliterate a warblade for damage past level 5.

 

[AllisterH]

Let's look at 1st level. Barb vs. Warblade against each other. Yes, I know the problems with a head-to-head battle, but I don't see a better way to deal with the issue. If we want something more "fair" perhaps have the warblade and the barbarian go up against 2 kobolds, then 2 goblins, then 2 orcs, then 1 gnoll then 1 bugbear, then 1 ogre, etc. and see who dies first. I'd guess it will be the barbarian (he can only rage once or if he has extra rage he's missing some other feat (power attack or weapon focus I'd guess) and can only rage 3 times.

Barb & Warblade both have STR 15, CON 14, DEX 13. Hps are 14 and 14, both have AC 15 (say chain shirt and dex) and greatsword.

Barbarian rages. Warblade is in stance that grants +2 AC.

Er, why didn't the barbarian simply shoot the warblade before he came into range? The barbarian does have a bow or does the lack of ranged combat on the warblade simply get handwaved away?.....

Stance of Clarity - Gain +2 AC against one foe, -2 AC against everyone else. You do realize that for a gauntlet one on one style battle, this is really strong but said warblade is going to be hurting when he faces more than 1 opponent like your 2 creatures at once scenario.

AC barb is now 13, WB is 17
Barb does 2d6+6 damage, has +5 attack bonus, hits on a 12 or better.
WB does 2d6+3, has +3 attack bonus hits on a 10 or better.

Average damage from barbarian is 13*.45= 5.85
Average damage from WB is 10*.55=5.5
_and_ the barbarian has an extra 2 hit points.

Actually, a better way to calculate it is to use a running total. Your method doesn't really show who would win if they just started swinging at each other.

1st round:
Barb prob to hit - 45% - No damage
WB prob to hit - 55% - 10 damage

2nd round:
Barb prob to hit -45%:90% - 13 dmg
WB prob to hit - 55%:110% - No dmg

3rd round:
Barb (45%:135%) - No dmg
WB (55%:165%) - 10 dmg

Warblade wins Of course, the number of creatures who at CR 1 can stand up to one swing of even a cleric wielding their regular mace is quite miniscule.

Doesn't take into account: +1 reflex save from WB (int=12), +10 movement from barbarian, skill lists, or ANY of the warblade's maneuvers. Assumes warblade is only fighting one person at a time and that the barbarian is only in one fight. Also, barbarians are certainly at their (relative) best at 1st level vs. all other core fighting classes. Only the Bo9S classes can really keep up at that level.

True it doesn't really factor in the other class abilities like the fact that the barbarian's rage has also increased its Fort and Will saves....

Actually, for the warblade, he can't. There aren't any manoeuvers that will automatically add damage to the attacks. Sapphire Nightmare Blade adds bonus damage and the best bet, but that manoeuver requires a Concentration check although you could use Steel Wind with Power attack to get more damage...

At 3rd level the warblade can have every other attack do +2d6 damage. That puts him well past the barbarian in terms of damage. At 4th level it's 2 of every 3. In that level range the barbarian gets trumped in terms of average damage in a head-to-head fight.

Mark

The only one that doesn't actually come with conditions is the White Raven's Tactical Strike (and that admittedly is all kinds of awesomeness for the rest of your party)
Mountain Hammer - only works when the warblade's feet are touching the ground. Horseback - Nope, On bridge- Nope, on seaship nope.
Claw at the Moon - requires a jump check (admittedly the easiest check to pull off)
Rapid Wolf Strike - take a -4 AC till your next turn.

 

[rgard]

Cerebremancer vs. MT is an interesting comparison.

- Ceremremancer: one casting stat.

- Mystic Theurge: share Metamagic feats and Item Creation feats.

I wonder which is "technically" stronger... probably depends on the style of the game. Downtime + wealth for item creation would be the tipping point I suspect.

Cheers, -- N

Hi Nifft, change the MT to an Archivist/Wiz/MT and I think that may be the tipping point.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Nifft]

Hi Nifft, change the MT to an Archivist/Wiz/MT and I think that may be the tipping point.

The more stuff you allow outside the SRD, the stronger spellcasters get in general. Psionics has so little support.

Cheers, -- N

 

[rgard]

The more stuff you allow outside the SRD, the stronger spellcasters get in general. Psionics has so little support.

Cheers, -- N

Fair enough.

thanks,
Rich

 

[Numion]

Somebody commented on Spiked Armor (Armor, folks, don't ban me!), that it's no good in D&D because IRL it would guide blows to your armor. This is true, but since D&D has many unarmed opponents or opponents who grapple, the armor would make sense.

At least I would spike the hell out of my armor if I knew I was fighting bears instead of soldiers IRL. Grapple this, beeyotch!