Wik
First Post
I wouldn't mind hearing it. This is a game my group would HATE, but I know I'd love to play it (probably not run it, though)
Mouse Guard, Anyone?
I wouldn't mind hearing it. This is a game my group would HATE, but I know I'd love to play it (probably not run it, though)
TerraDave
5ever, or until 2024
This is not that different then almost every RPG I have played/GMed. I guess a little more story control for the players? (versus just saying "we chase after him") But not radically different.
Aurumvorax
First Post
Story control the players is exactly what makes it different. I've only played a few RPGs (Dogs in the Vineyard and, ahem, "Maid the RPG" being two examples) that give the players as much control over the plot as the GM. In the standard RPG the player states an action and the GM describes the result. In Mouse Guard it's actually the opposite with the GM stating his action ("You must deliver the mail/You must fortify the scent barrier/You must escort this mouse") and the players describing their results.
I love Mouse Guard, but sadly most of my group does not. It was the combat system that did it for them.
The party is split into teams, either two teams of two, one team of three, or what have you. The players decide which of them will do what actions, in secret, for three phases while the GM does the same for the bad guys.
Say some mice are fighting with a snake. First thing to determine are the stakes - say the snake has nested along a trade road and the mice want to drive him away. The snake wants to drive the mice away and keep its nice nest. Note that this is explicitly not a fight to the death, though that is possible. Its just that its stated upfront.
So the players decide their actions and the GM marks down his. The first player reveals that his mouse is defending, which is wise because the snake is attacking. The mouse has a distinct advantage over the snake. The second mouse goes for an attack, and so does the snake. Both do damage to each other. The third mouse has feinted, which was a mistake. Feints only work against attacks, and the snake was defending against the third attack. Once one team is out of hit points (can't remember what they're called), then a compromise is reached based on how far down the other team was. If the mice had almost all their points, the snake is driven off. If they were down a few, then two of them are tired. If they are down almost all, then they might all be Injured and Sick from poison.
This system is used for every major conflict in the game. For a journey, the mice Attacking would represent boldy forging a new trail, while a Maneauver might represent gathering berries and firewood along the way. The Season is the attacker, where a Defense might represent a small cliff that they'll have to go around, or a Feint might represent a false trail.
Oddly, my group seemed to like the system for debates and journeys, but hated it for combat. It seemed too random to them, that you had to declare your attack so far in advance.
I love running the game, as it calls for a lot of thinking on your feet. Maybe someday.
The party is split into teams, either two teams of two, one team of three, or what have you. The players decide which of them will do what actions, in secret, for three phases while the GM does the same for the bad guys.
Say some mice are fighting with a snake. First thing to determine are the stakes - say the snake has nested along a trade road and the mice want to drive him away. The snake wants to drive the mice away and keep its nice nest. Note that this is explicitly not a fight to the death, though that is possible. Its just that its stated upfront.
So the players decide their actions and the GM marks down his. The first player reveals that his mouse is defending, which is wise because the snake is attacking. The mouse has a distinct advantage over the snake. The second mouse goes for an attack, and so does the snake. Both do damage to each other. The third mouse has feinted, which was a mistake. Feints only work against attacks, and the snake was defending against the third attack. Once one team is out of hit points (can't remember what they're called), then a compromise is reached based on how far down the other team was. If the mice had almost all their points, the snake is driven off. If they were down a few, then two of them are tired. If they are down almost all, then they might all be Injured and Sick from poison.
This system is used for every major conflict in the game. For a journey, the mice Attacking would represent boldy forging a new trail, while a Maneauver might represent gathering berries and firewood along the way. The Season is the attacker, where a Defense might represent a small cliff that they'll have to go around, or a Feint might represent a false trail.
Oddly, my group seemed to like the system for debates and journeys, but hated it for combat. It seemed too random to them, that you had to declare your attack so far in advance.
I love running the game, as it calls for a lot of thinking on your feet. Maybe someday.
This is true, and most present in the Wises. In the demo game I ran one of the players said he wanted to look for a shady character that might know about the plot going on. In MG, there *is* a shady character if a player wants to use his Wises. Now the roll determines not if such a character is there, but there's a complication. Player succeeds, there is such a contact that might know something. If they fail the contact is still there, but he might be working for the bad guys and try to attack or run away. Or he might just have bad information and send them on a wild goose-chase.
Thanks for the link to that podcast. I have the game and was trying to figure it all out, but things simply weren't clicking. But after listening to the podcast its much clearer. The game is a little outside the style of play that my group have traditionally played, but I think I'll be able to present it in a way that attracts their interest.
Alright, lets see how it goes...
In the basic scenario I set up, there was a pen of pet crickets under assault by a hungry toad (frog stats from the book). The two mouse guard players entered with the goal of scaring the toad off before it ate any crickets.
Both sides in a conflict must right down a goal when the conflict starts. My players said they didn't want to kill the toad, so they opted to just drive it away. The "toad's" goal was to eat several crickets and then escape.
Whoever wins the fight gets to accomplish their goal.
There are NO hit points in Mouse Guard. At the start of any conflict, be it a fight or a debate, both sides roll for their starting Disposition. A team's disposition is the strength of their position at the start of the conflict. Basically you roll for successes using a skill and add it to a base attribute, getting a number hopefully somewhere between 3 - 7 (or higher). In the case of a fight, you roll your Fight skill and add it to your Health attribute. Anyone on your team can lend a die to help add to the team's total.
The mice and the toad rolled, and both got a disposition of 6.
As mentioned earlier by another poster, each side in a conflict (GM and players, usually) must secretly choose 3 actions at a time. There are 4 possible actions to choose from:
- Attack - lower your opponent's disposition.
- Defend - decrease an opponent's attack and even recover your own lost disposition.
- Feint - A trick that can completely void an opponent's Defense role.
- Maneuver - Give your opponent a penalty, yourself a bonus, or both!
Round 1:
The toad opted to Attack while the player's decided to Defend. This created a "versus" roll: the toad's attack versus the player's defense roll. The mouse rolled more successes than the toad's attack, thus completely avoiding any damage to his team's disposition.
GM: "The toad leaps towards you, attempting to bully you back through the pen."
Player: "I block him with the shaft of my spear, and push the beast off me!"
Round 2:
The toad revealed his Feint action, while the second mouse player revealed that she was doing a Maneuver. Unfortunately for the mice, when a Feint is played against a Maneuver, successes are removed from the opponent's disposition! The toad rolled 3 successes on his Feint, so that subtracted 3 from the guard mice's disposition (already half their total). Thankfully, the mouse's maneuver was also successful, so her clever positioning gave the toad a penalty on its next action, and a bonus to the mice's next action!
GM: "The toad leaps at you again and you throw yourself to the side. You look up foolishly from your tumble when you realize the toad hardly moved."
Player: "Pissed, I use my position to roll around him and get his attention. He'll have a harder time catching a moving target..."
Round 3:
The toad reveals his last action of the set, another Attack. It's the first mouse's action again, and he reveals Defend (again). The toad was at a -1 dice penalty (from the previous mouse's Maneuver) and this Mouse action was at +2 dice (from the same previous Manuever!). The toad and mouse roll, and the mouse easily blocks the attack.
GM: "The toad leaps at you again!"
Player: "Ha! I block him with the butt of my spear and push him back!"
At this point, the three actions of the set have been resolved and neither team has been reduced to 0 disposition. From here, both teams must choose 3 more actions in secret and we go again!
Round 4:
The toad attacks (hey, it's a toad!) and so does the mouse guard character! At this point, the players only have 3 disposition left, and the toad has all 6 of his. It's not looking too good for the mice... however...
The toad rolls only 1 success (lowering the mice to 2 disposition). The mouse guard player rolls successes on ALL his dice, total 6, and reducing the toad to 0.
Conflict over; the mice win!
But wait... it's not so cut and dry. If the winner of a conflict has suffered any loss to their disposition, then they owe the loser a compromise. This is an interesting mechanic than can, again, twist the narrative in unforseen directions. There are three grades of compromises: minor, compromise, and major compromise... based on how much disposition the winner lost.
Since the mice lost all but 2 of their disposition, I declare that they owe the looser (the toad!) a major compromise. It is the loser's job to propose the compromise and the winners can discuss and than accept or deny it. Negotiations may continue.
Keep in mind that this is a narrative tool between the GM and the players. The toad isn't actually surrendering and then offering a compromise IN CHARACTER! The GM and the players are just working out where to go.
So, I offer that the toad be chased away... but not before he gobbles up 2 crickets! The players discuss it... and reject the offer! They wanted to save all the crickets. They counter-propose that, as the toad escapes, he breaks a hole in the cricket pen, thus releasing all the crickets into the town!
So the characters saved the crickets from the hungry toad, but since they had a tough time of it, the crickets ended up escaping the pen. If we were playing a full session, I might add the escaped crickets as another obstacle in the mission... a twist, if you will
So that's about it. My players had a blast! There are some fiddly bits that I didn't mention, but that add some complexity to the system. For instance, players on a team can help each other (giving bonus dice), and different weapons have attributes that can help with specific actions, etc. This is not a complex system, but there's a certain level of strategy and luck involved.
It was quick, interesting, and more enough... it encouraged narration during combat. Since we've been playing 4e for near a year now, this was a welcomed pace. We've long felt that combats in 4e felt like a "different game" than the rest of our D&D session... like RP/Exploration was completely different than the combat experience. With our fist test of Mouse Guard, it seemed that there was very little break in the narrative.
This same system is used to handle other conflicts like chase scenes, long journeys, and arguments... and my players are itching to try them all.
I'll report back after we play our fist full session, hopefully this weekend!
Last edited:
Wik
First Post
Damn it. The more I hear about this game, the more I realize it's one of those games I'd love, but not a single player of mine would really get behind (well, maybe my brother could enjoy it...)
I remember flipping through it, loving the art, and the idea that a character can only carry a few pieces of gear - a rope, a cloak, and a weapon, for example. Which I thought was ingenius.
I remember flipping through it, loving the art, and the idea that a character can only carry a few pieces of gear - a rope, a cloak, and a weapon, for example. Which I thought was ingenius.
Pbartender
First Post
I might have to take another look into this one.
We gave my 11-year-old son the second Mouse Guard book for Christmas (he already had the first). While he was reading it the other day he said, "I wish they had a game like D&D for Mouse Guard."
To which I happily replied, "They do!"
We gave my 11-year-old son the second Mouse Guard book for Christmas (he already had the first). While he was reading it the other day he said, "I wish they had a game like D&D for Mouse Guard."
To which I happily replied, "They do!"
We played our first session Friday night.
By all accounts, it was a blast! A couple notes of interest:
A Mouse Guard session is broken into two "turns" the GM's turn and the Players' turn. Each turn last between 1 and 2 hours. Read my earlier post in this thread for a more detailed explanation.
GM's Turn:
We started off with the patrol leader, Phineas, receiving the mission from the NPC matriarch of the Mouse Guard, Gwendolyn. My player jumped right into character, and we spend a few minutes roleplaying the exchange between the matriarch and his mouse. Phineas had been assigned a routine "mail delivery" mission, and he was a little miffed that his talents were being wasted. Gwendolyn smiled at him, and then revealed that he'd also been assigned a Tenderpaw (fresh recruit) and that the easy mission was designed to ease the newbie into the force... and that a more challenging mission might await them upon their arrival of the last mail stop.
Grumbling, Phineas accepted the mission and gathered his fellow guard mouse, Gurney. Gurney is an old vet of the Guard, but his impetuous nature has kept him from rising to a leadership role (he has the Young trait). The two vets were quickly joined by Tinble, a young lady-mouse with an eye for science and discovery. Eager to earn her spot among the guard, she falls right in line and the patrols sets underway.
In the GM's turn, the GM is tasked to set obstacles before the players. In a well-designed mission, these obstacles should challenge the Belief, Goals, and Instincts of the the players (or some of them at least). That's the point of Mouse Guard... it's not enough to just complete missions; the players should face choices that challenge who they are and what they believe.
For this first mission, however, everything was a little more generic. I described the first leg of the patrol's journey, trying to envision it through the eyes of a 3" tall mouse. The seasons and weather play an important role in Mouse Guard, so I payed particular detail to the fact that it was early spring... new growth was struggling to find root in the newly thawed ground, etc.
As a result of all the melting snow, the first Obstacle I threw at the patrol was a long patch of muddy ground. The trail before them had degenerated into a mild bog and I explained it would be an Ob 3 Health test to trudge through it (i.e. they need to roll their "Health" in dice and get 3 successes to succeed). I also offered that they could perhaps find another solution.
Gurney, playing on his Young trait (impetuous and impatient!) charged ahead! He actually used his Trait (Young) against himself to give him a -1 dice penalty on his roll. He did this to earn a "check" to spend on the upcoming Players turn (again, read my earlier post for more detail). He made his 3 successes anyway and trudged through the mud.
Phineas, however, held back. His Instinct (as written by his player) is to "Approach new situations cautiously". He suggested that he show the tenderpaw how to cut a new path. He expressed that he'd like to make a Pathfinder roll to find an alternative path around the mud. With myself being the GM, I have final approval over what skills can be used during an obstacle (though players are encouraged to brainstorm new options!).
I agreed that it'd be appropriate I told him it'd be an Ob 4 (he needs 4 successes). I turned to the tenderpaw, Tinble, and asked if she wanted to help him. See, in Mouse Guard, players are encouraged to help each other whenever possible. It's akin to Aid Another in D&D 4e. If the player has an appropriate skill (Tinble had "Scout", which can aid Pathfinder by looking for details/hidden trails, etc), he/she just hands the other player an extra die to roll!
With Tinble's help, Phineas succeeds on his Pathfinder check and together they meet back with Gurney at the end of the mud patch. Success!
Had the party failed, I could have given them a Condition (Hungry, Angry, Tired, Sick, or Injured) or I could have thrown them a Twist. A twist is basically when things get harder or worse... I could throw another, unexpected obstacle at them, or expand the current obstacle to make it another challenge. This is how games get interesting...
So onward they traveled to their first stop on the mail rout, the city of Elmoss. We RP'd their arrival and excited greeting they received from the townsmice. The patrol stood in the town square and passed out the mail, etc. As they were leaving Elmoss, an eager young merchant approached them and asked them to escort him to their next destination.
Normally the patrol might have said yes, but I described this merchant as having a rickity handcart, overflowing with packages of moss. The patrol knew it would cost them an additional day if they agreed to escort him. Phineas had to roll a Persuader vs. Persuader roll against his fellow guard mouse, Gurney, to convince his own patrol that they didn't have time to waste. The group agreed to follow Phineas' lead and they turned to leave...
The merchant wasn't taking no for an answer though, and started an Argument Conflict with the patrol. Basically, they got in a "fight" with words Look at my previous post about how Conflicts work (mice vs. toad). This conflict took probably only 15 or 20 minutes to play out and there was as much RPing as there were dice rolling. In an Argument, RPing your verbal barbs actually gives you bonus dice... and repeating your same points gives you penalties!
Unfortunately for the patrol, the lost the conflict with the merchant, to they reluctantly agreed to escort him to the next city. This was a FAILED obstacle, so I threw a twist to the group... I explained that it cost them an extra day to reach Sprucetuck and while they were on the road... it started to snow. An early Spring Snow descended upon them, setting up another obstacle; I declared an Ob 3 Health check or else become Tired (they needed to roll their Health in dice and get 3 successes or suffer the Tired condition).
All the mice made their Health check and made it to Sprucetuck, a day late, but none the worse for wear.
END of the GM's Turn.... and START of the Players' turn. Just a note, the GM's turn took about 90 minutes and would have gone quicker but we did look up a few rules, got sidetracked with table talk, and my two year old daughter was running around distracting everyone (not usual, but unavoidable this week, lol).
In the Players' turn, each player gets one "check" to spend, plus any checks they earned in the GM's turn. A "check" is basically an Ability or Skill check that can be used to recover from Conditions (Hungry, Tired, etc), gather equipment or information, work towards a personal goal, or just to have fun!
The whole Player's turn took about 45 minutes and involved:
We had a blast. The world of Mouse Guard is an odd mixture of cute and dangerous. I mean... how much cuter can you get than "mice with swords"... but the players felt vulnerable the whole time. I kept describing shadows passing overhead as hawks flew above them searching for prey (just flavor text at this point!). With the mention of weasels, the players are psyched and a little scared about next session. They are already attached to their characters and don't want to die... and I credit that with the fact that you have to give each character a Belief and an Instict.
We played just over 3 hours and it felt like we accomplished a lot. My players left smiling... devoid of that "tired" look they often get after a 4 hour D&D session (and we have great sessions with lots of RP and great characters!). I've come to see that 4e is a great game... but it is a heavy game that requires a lot out of the players and the GM. Mouse Guard, so far, has been light and easy, but satisfying and fun.
By all accounts, it was a blast! A couple notes of interest:
- Nobody had any problems roleplaying a mouse. I suppose if one is used to roleplaying an elf, goblin, or elemental-infused humanoid... a mouse isn't too far of a stretch!
- Because of the Beliefs, Instincts, and Traits written for each character when we created them, each player had a nice little guide to get them "in character".
- The mechanics are simple, but take some getting used to. I had one player stating occasionally "I just have to get out of the D&D mindset".
- It was a lot of fun!
A Mouse Guard session is broken into two "turns" the GM's turn and the Players' turn. Each turn last between 1 and 2 hours. Read my earlier post in this thread for a more detailed explanation.
GM's Turn:
We started off with the patrol leader, Phineas, receiving the mission from the NPC matriarch of the Mouse Guard, Gwendolyn. My player jumped right into character, and we spend a few minutes roleplaying the exchange between the matriarch and his mouse. Phineas had been assigned a routine "mail delivery" mission, and he was a little miffed that his talents were being wasted. Gwendolyn smiled at him, and then revealed that he'd also been assigned a Tenderpaw (fresh recruit) and that the easy mission was designed to ease the newbie into the force... and that a more challenging mission might await them upon their arrival of the last mail stop.
Grumbling, Phineas accepted the mission and gathered his fellow guard mouse, Gurney. Gurney is an old vet of the Guard, but his impetuous nature has kept him from rising to a leadership role (he has the Young trait). The two vets were quickly joined by Tinble, a young lady-mouse with an eye for science and discovery. Eager to earn her spot among the guard, she falls right in line and the patrols sets underway.
In the GM's turn, the GM is tasked to set obstacles before the players. In a well-designed mission, these obstacles should challenge the Belief, Goals, and Instincts of the the players (or some of them at least). That's the point of Mouse Guard... it's not enough to just complete missions; the players should face choices that challenge who they are and what they believe.
For this first mission, however, everything was a little more generic. I described the first leg of the patrol's journey, trying to envision it through the eyes of a 3" tall mouse. The seasons and weather play an important role in Mouse Guard, so I payed particular detail to the fact that it was early spring... new growth was struggling to find root in the newly thawed ground, etc.
As a result of all the melting snow, the first Obstacle I threw at the patrol was a long patch of muddy ground. The trail before them had degenerated into a mild bog and I explained it would be an Ob 3 Health test to trudge through it (i.e. they need to roll their "Health" in dice and get 3 successes to succeed). I also offered that they could perhaps find another solution.
Gurney, playing on his Young trait (impetuous and impatient!) charged ahead! He actually used his Trait (Young) against himself to give him a -1 dice penalty on his roll. He did this to earn a "check" to spend on the upcoming Players turn (again, read my earlier post for more detail). He made his 3 successes anyway and trudged through the mud.
Phineas, however, held back. His Instinct (as written by his player) is to "Approach new situations cautiously". He suggested that he show the tenderpaw how to cut a new path. He expressed that he'd like to make a Pathfinder roll to find an alternative path around the mud. With myself being the GM, I have final approval over what skills can be used during an obstacle (though players are encouraged to brainstorm new options!).
I agreed that it'd be appropriate I told him it'd be an Ob 4 (he needs 4 successes). I turned to the tenderpaw, Tinble, and asked if she wanted to help him. See, in Mouse Guard, players are encouraged to help each other whenever possible. It's akin to Aid Another in D&D 4e. If the player has an appropriate skill (Tinble had "Scout", which can aid Pathfinder by looking for details/hidden trails, etc), he/she just hands the other player an extra die to roll!
With Tinble's help, Phineas succeeds on his Pathfinder check and together they meet back with Gurney at the end of the mud patch. Success!
Had the party failed, I could have given them a Condition (Hungry, Angry, Tired, Sick, or Injured) or I could have thrown them a Twist. A twist is basically when things get harder or worse... I could throw another, unexpected obstacle at them, or expand the current obstacle to make it another challenge. This is how games get interesting...
So onward they traveled to their first stop on the mail rout, the city of Elmoss. We RP'd their arrival and excited greeting they received from the townsmice. The patrol stood in the town square and passed out the mail, etc. As they were leaving Elmoss, an eager young merchant approached them and asked them to escort him to their next destination.
Normally the patrol might have said yes, but I described this merchant as having a rickity handcart, overflowing with packages of moss. The patrol knew it would cost them an additional day if they agreed to escort him. Phineas had to roll a Persuader vs. Persuader roll against his fellow guard mouse, Gurney, to convince his own patrol that they didn't have time to waste. The group agreed to follow Phineas' lead and they turned to leave...
The merchant wasn't taking no for an answer though, and started an Argument Conflict with the patrol. Basically, they got in a "fight" with words
Look at my previous post about how Conflicts work (mice vs. toad). This conflict took probably only 15 or 20 minutes to play out and there was as much RPing as there were dice rolling. In an Argument, RPing your verbal barbs actually gives you bonus dice... and repeating your same points gives you penalties!Unfortunately for the patrol, the lost the conflict with the merchant, to they reluctantly agreed to escort him to the next city. This was a FAILED obstacle, so I threw a twist to the group... I explained that it cost them an extra day to reach Sprucetuck and while they were on the road... it started to snow. An early Spring Snow descended upon them, setting up another obstacle; I declared an Ob 3 Health check or else become Tired (they needed to roll their Health in dice and get 3 successes or suffer the Tired condition).
All the mice made their Health check and made it to Sprucetuck, a day late, but none the worse for wear.
END of the GM's Turn.... and START of the Players' turn. Just a note, the GM's turn took about 90 minutes and would have gone quicker but we did look up a few rules, got sidetracked with table talk, and my two year old daughter was running around distracting everyone (not usual, but unavoidable this week, lol).
In the Players' turn, each player gets one "check" to spend, plus any checks they earned in the GM's turn. A "check" is basically an Ability or Skill check that can be used to recover from Conditions (Hungry, Tired, etc), gather equipment or information, work towards a personal goal, or just to have fun!
The whole Player's turn took about 45 minutes and involved:
- Gurney making a Circles check to find a sciencemouse ally who could help him make some master armorsmithing tools (success!)
- Phineas making a Resources check to find a badass sword he could have (failure, with a twist... he instead learned a legend/location of a famous weasel-slaying sword, "Toothcutter" that was lost during the war)
- Tinble making a Science check to help the mice of Sprucetuck complete the "scent" mixture that they use to warn off big predators (which the group will be depositing on their next mission!) (Success!)
- Gurney making a Weather Watcher check to predict (and change!) the next session's weather (failure... he gained the Hungry condition from standing outside in the snow too long)
- Phineas making a Persuader check to get some information from the town mayor (Success, he learned that a fox has been rumored to have crossed the weakened scent border, and that weasels have been on the prowl.)
- Tinble makes a Science check to create medical supplies to take with them on their next mission (success, helped by Phineas Harvester skill).
- Gurney makes a Resources check to find a nice hot bowl of nut stew (Success, and he erases his Hungry condition).
We had a blast. The world of Mouse Guard is an odd mixture of cute and dangerous. I mean... how much cuter can you get than "mice with swords"... but the players felt vulnerable the whole time. I kept describing shadows passing overhead as hawks flew above them searching for prey (just flavor text at this point!). With the mention of weasels, the players are psyched and a little scared about next session. They are already attached to their characters and don't want to die... and I credit that with the fact that you have to give each character a Belief and an Instict.
We played just over 3 hours and it felt like we accomplished a lot. My players left smiling... devoid of that "tired" look they often get after a 4 hour D&D session (and we have great sessions with lots of RP and great characters!). I've come to see that 4e is a great game... but it is a heavy game that requires a lot out of the players and the GM. Mouse Guard, so far, has been light and easy, but satisfying and fun.
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